AMA: Youth Movements, Sex Miseducation, and Creativity in Advocacy

Maintaining hope during this moment in reproductive health and rights, plenty of book-talk, and even a deep-dive into Jennie’s sex education in Catholic school…Tarah Demant, Interim National Director of Programs, Advocacy, and Government Affairs at Amnesty International USA, asks host Jennie Wetter a series of ask me anything (AMA) questions.

LINKS FROM THIS EPISODE

Amnesty International USA on X
Amnesty International USA on Facebook
Tarah Demant on Twitter
Bedsider
Amaze
Amaze Jr.

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. Hi, rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So, I was trying to think of what to do for this week's episode. It's still summer. I wanted to do something fun and not so heavy. And I looked back at our past episodes and realized it has been almost two years since we have done an Ask Me Anything episode. So that is what we are doing today. So that means I'm going to be handing my mic over to my good friend Tarah. Tarah, take it away.

Tarah: Hey rePROs. Welcome back to the Fake Host with the Mic. My name is Tarah Demant. My pronouns are she/her. And I'm really excited, Jennie, to talk with you today. I love Ask Me Anythings. They always spark such good, interesting, fruitful conversations, which is, of course, the vibe of your podcast. So, very excited to be a part of it. So, it's also thinking of something fun and light. Let me start with a sort of not light, sort of not fun question. We were asked, thanks for those who threw in their questions. And one of the questions, and I think it really resonates with a lot of listeners, is around: what gives you hope in our space these days when everyone, everything feels pretty bleak? And I think it's easy for us to look out and see what's happening and the attacks that are happening and feel pretty bleak. So, how do you keep hope alive in these in the repro space specifically?

Jennie: Yeah, there's a couple of things. One, as bad as everything is, I think it has encouraged people to think bolder and louder and accept less compromise. And I mean that in all the best ways, right? There's less of the, like, let's compromise to keep what gains we had, or this is what we can achieve, so this is as far as we should reach. You're seeing so much more, like, dreaming big about what real reproductive freedom looks like. And that's not to say some of those conversations weren't happening before, because they absolutely were. I think they've just become in, become louder and bolder and have just become a much bigger part of conversations that are happening in a way they weren't before. And then my other one, which I feel like I've talked about on the podcast a lot, which is why I didn't start here. But the thing it really does give me the most hope is all of the people on the ground in the states who are doing everything they can to ensure that people who need abortion are still able to get one, whether that is the clinic workers connecting people with abortion funds or helping them find ways to travel out of state, or it's shield providers in states where abortion is protected, sending medication abortion into states where it is banned, or if it is abortion funds who are scrambling every day to meet as much need as they can. And I think it's really important to think in that space, there was such a big boom of donations to abortion funds in the fall of Roe. And you would see it also, like as you heard states like talking about bans or enacting policies, the rage donating, right? But the rage-donating has gone away because we've been in this new kind of status for a while. So, abortion funds have not seen that same continued high level of donation. So, I think I always love to raise the work that they are doing because it is important to continue to donate to them. But that is such hard work that is being done on the ground. And especially when I think of people working in clinics who are dealing with patients and people with abortion funds who are trying to help people get the care they need. I am a really empathetic person, and I just know that that way would be the way that would break me in this work. I would go broke giving more money than I should. I would emotionally burn out very quickly being that connected to the people. So, it gives me extra hope and such seeing people doing that work when I know that would be a hard space for me to sit in. And everybody has their role, right? But yeah, that is where I think about the people on the ground doing that amazing work.

Tarah: Yeah, I think a lot about the folks doing the things that seem so impossible to me and so hard for me. And it's such a good reminder that we all have different things and different ways we're contributing to the movement, and also that might change over time and over a lifetime. You could be filling multiple different roles depending on where you are, personally, vocationally, spiritually, financially. So, like knowing that the people are doing the work, it's so cheesy to bring up quotes, but I do think about two quotes quite a bit. One is attributed to Mr. Rogers, what a Stan, who spent a lifetime sort of teaching children how to deal with a complex and sometimes very scary world. And one of them was around like when you see an accident or ambulances and things are really scary and bad. Like, his quote is to "look for the helpers," like, this bad thing has happened, and that is bad. But look for the helpers and all the people who are coming and doing what they can in whatever way they can. So, yeah, when I'm feeling down, I just need to, like, reshift my view. I'm looking at the wrong thing. It is right. It is emotionally correct to feel really down when you look at all the attacks, and so we need to be aware of those, but we also need to focus on how we can actually make change happen. The second quote is by the great poet Maya Angelou. I used to have a yogi finish practice with this, and it was so obnoxiously useful. It was one of those, like, I hate to admit that it was actually a really important way to end yoga practice every day. But the quote from Maya Angelou is that "there's always been evil and there will always be evil, but there has also always been good and there is good now." And whether or not you that is your worldview, it is helpful to think around that there is good happening right now, and we can be a part of that and we can tap into that, or we can support it, or we can be grateful for it if that's where what we are. Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. It's the shifting of perspective, it doesn't make the bad go away, but it helps us see that there's more going on and that we have reason to be hopeful.

Jennie: And I think the other thing I think about is like, people ask how I can do this work when it seems so rage-inducing and all the things, which are all true. But I firmly believe that we will win. I could not do this work if I thought it was pointless, like that we were just I may not be around when it happens, things may get worse. I would really like to hope not, but like I know that ultimately, we will get to a world with reproductive freedom and LGBTQ rights and all of the things where trans people are fully accepted in their entirety and all of the things we talk about and work on will happen. So, that keeps me going. Even at times when it may be dark and I'm frustrated and want to quit and start that bakery bookshop and all the things, I still believe that we will win.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah. Well, one, we should absolutely start a bakery bookshop. That is an important part of this movement. Please, yes, please. Any investors, you give us a ring.

Jennie: Yeah, right.

Tarah: We need spaces to recharge, we need places to create, we need places to imagine. So, shout out to all the bakeries and bookshops and other places like that. I think the belief that we will win is not this sort of, like, Pollyanna, like, it'll all work out in the end, you know, but it is like rooted in seeing the people fight. No, no, no. It's gonna be work. We're gonna win because we're not gonna stop fighting.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: And I spend a lot of my time these days thinking about authoritarianism. My role at Amnesty is actually focused on authoritarian practices, which was a shift from the gender work, but actually not really because like the ultimate authoritarian practice is like the control of the body, right? And like we're gonna win because losing requires every last person to sit down and say, I give up. And even in days when I feel like, well, shit, I gotta take a seat. I am so tired, I'm so burnt out. There are other people who are standing up and doing that so that I can take a break and stand up when I can. So that's like the firm, the root, the belief is not because, like, good things always come. It's because we're just gonna keep fighting until we win. And also, it's a better world we're offering. And we can get people to take the wall off their eyes, like and see that— that we're just offering a better world, right? And that is why we're gonna keep fighting for it until we get there. Those are the hopeful things. Yeah, no, same, Jennie, same. So, thank you to the- I was gonna say readers, but the listeners who are submitting that question. This moves me to one of my questions, actually, which is: what are we seeing? And what are the trends that you're seeing over the last year or so? And I mean, it's been two years since an Ask Me Anything, but what are the trends you're seeing? What's new or what's expected attacks? Where are the shifts happening? Where are we seeing strong resistance or victories? Where should we be spending our time? What's the landscape look like from where you're sitting?

Jennie: I am thinking about the elections coming up, not just for elected officials, but thinking through abortion is gonna be on the ballot again in states. And we have when abortion has been on the ballot, it has in the majority won. So, it is great to see states putting it on the ballot now. Are all of those gonna expand and we're gonna have, like, perfect access? No, but hopefully, getting things in a better place. We are talking on August 5th. Kansas just had a vote about their Supreme Court. Oh my god, my brain is like blanking, so I'm not like having all of the details, but Kansas had enshrined abortion rights in their constitution, and so I think it was they were trying to get it so voters could vote for Supreme Court justices, which would make it more conservative, and they were hoping then to be able to repeal abortion rights that way. And the voters were like, I don't think so. So, that was great news to see just yesterday, but it'll be a little more in the future when y'all hear this. So, that is exciting seeing these things going to the people and seeing abortion rights win. I think the other thing is just continued attacks on medication abortion, right? Whether that is through pressuring the FDA to change how they are restricting it to make it more restrictive, seeing court cases working up, seeing states trying to have mifepristone listed as a controlled substance, like trying to see various ways that you can continue to attack mifepristone. So that is something I'm definitely keeping an eye on. And also seeing states do good things with expanding the shield laws to try and protect providers who are mailing abortion pills into other states and trying, and you're starting to see some states think about how that would work with gender-affirming care, which is a little more complicated than abortion rights because it's an ongoing relationship versus like a one-time thing. So, there's thought being put into how to make that work to ensure that people are still able to access gender-affirming care if things were to happen. I just feel like there are so many things happening and there are some positive, but like we also know the anti-rights groups are not gonna give up, they are never going to be happy enough until I don't know, they can put people in jail and they sure try.

Tarah: Until they can build the sort of white Christian nationalist world that they're imagining. Yeah. I mean, one of the broader trends like I'm hearing from you, and I'm certainly seeing is this move to move towards the state, right? So, in so many ways, the federal government has emptied out its responsibilities on the states in lots of different issues. It's not just for reproductive care. And of course, what Dobbs did was wipe out a national protection, and the reality is now that's up to the state. Now, anti-rights actors are working very hard to then make explicit restrictions at the state level, too. And so, I think this is a place where we can really see real, you know, bang for our buck doing work. I'm glad you mentioned Kansas, Missouri also had a couple of ballot initiatives that seemed quote unquote unrelated to reproductive rights, but they were around limiting ballot measure power because of course, you know, they really want it to, they really want it to be harder for people to weigh in on the biggest thing.

Jennie: Yeah, they have abortion on the ballot again.

Tarah: And abortions on the ballot, that's right. And you know, so I think those are ways where we see people engaging, even people who don't see their primary work as reproductive rights, engaging at the state level, that's going to be really fruitful. So, you know, one of the things I hope that your listeners are doing is finding where those fights are happening at your state at your state level. Like, where are the bills, where's the legislation where people are either trying to chip away under the radar or actually making protections? Like states are passing strong protections where they can.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: It's a good question if I say so myself, having written it, because I think it's a helpful way to think about where we should be spending our time.

Jennie: And we're gonna do an episode digging into this part a little later, but just it's definitely worth mentioning here as we're talking about it that you know the elections are coming up, and it's not just your state representative, your state senator, your house member, your senate, your uh state, your senator who have control over reproductive related issues, right? So, thinking through school board members who are banning books or making it harder for LGBTQ folks or others at school, or if you're thinking if you're in a place where you elect judges, if your state has a law that says minors need consent or notification before they can get an abortion, it that means they may have to go through a judicial bypass if they are not in a place where they can get parental consent. So, that means the judge is responsible for how pleasant or unpleasant that process is. So, that also has implications. So, we'll talk about this more in a later episode because there's so much we can talk about there. But just thinking it's not just like one or two people on the ballot to think about when you are bringing repro issues with you. It is, like, the whole ballot.

Tarah: Repro is a lifestyle, baby. It's a whole way of living. It's also part of every conversation. You might think you're talking about potholes, but I promise you, it is also about reproductive rights. Who can get where when they need to? What does the state have control over? Who's trying to make our lives easier? Who's trying to take away our rights? Yeah, that's that's gonna be, you know, voting is a really critical part of that. And just community participation as well. What is your community and where do you have influence? Maybe that is your block, maybe it's your school, maybe it's your immediate family, maybe it is something you're willing to, you know, reach out and talk with organizers around and build that out more. But yeah, those are all those conversations are going to be really critical with this being a big election year. But also, you know, elections and voting is just one piece of it. Yeah, like people live their lives day to day, and not just every two Novembers or every August primary. So, how are we getting involved at that level as well? I think it is so important. Well, we've asked a couple of questions that are, you know, more on the substance. And let's get back to the question of like ask me another is supposed to also be fun. It's summer. So, there's some questions here around your favorites, and a couple are around books. So, questions about your favorite authors and why. And also, if you could spend a month with a box of books in a new and special place, where would you go? And which box would which books would be in your box? I find these questions impossible. I was like, well, every book and like 400 boxes.

Jennie: This is why I have an e-reader.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah. So, tell us, why don't we just start with: what are you reading right now?

Jennie: Yeah, so right now I am listening to Patrick Radden Keefe's London Falling. So that is one. And I am also just started listening to Malice by John Gwynne. I feel like that is one I've been hearing about so much on BookTok, or well, not BookTok, Bookstagram. I'm not on TikTok. And it sounded really great. So, I just started it and I'm very much enjoying that so far. And then I am also reading Sea of Charms by Sarah Beth Durst. It's in [the series] if you saw The Spellshop like a year, two years ago.

Tarah: Yeah, sure.

Jennie: It's a cozy fantasy, and this one is about somebody who has a boat and is traveling, doing deliveries on the islands and just like delightful, not-super-high-tension stories. So that is really fun. So that is when those are the ones I'm reading currently at the moment.

Tarah: It's good to have a variety too, kind of what you're in the mood for. So, who are your favorite authors or authors you kind of go back to over and over again?

Jennie: Yeah, again, I was telling Tarah this before we started. I am not good at spontaneously thinking of these things. My brain freezes and just, like, because I read so much and have all the things, so I get like the like, I don't know. So, I did sit down and start doing some thinking beforehand so I could get my head together because again, my brain will freeze. So, I had to go through my good reads a little bit to refresh my memory. So, one, I already mentioned, I'm gonna do some nonfiction. I really will read anything written by Patrick Radden Keefe. I really love his nonfiction work. I first discovered him with the Wind of Change podcast. If people haven't listened to it, it's really great. It's tracking down the rumor that the song “Wind of Change” by the Scorpions was actually a CIA operation. And so, it's just a delightful podcast, like, tracking down this rumor to find out if it's true.

Tarah: He's the author of Say Nothing.

Jennie: Yes, and then that led me to read Say Nothing.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah, phenomenal writer. He just makes things interesting that I'm not particularly interested in necessarily. Yeah, like the Empire of Pain.

Jennie: It was also really good, yeah.

Tarah: I just didn’t have a ton of interest in the opium crisis, the opioid crisis.

Jennie: But he wrote it, so I was gonna read it.

Tarah: So, I was gonna read it. It was so good, yeah. Absolutely recommend.

Jennie: The other person I've in nonfiction that I’ve learned so much from her, and I try to read all of her stuff, is Dorothy Roberts. I definitely feel like I've talked about her on the podcast before. Killing the Black Body was such a great book to read as I was getting to understand reproductive justice more. I also really- “loved” feels like the wrong word because it was really a hard read. Torn Apart on the family policing system— it was such a good book. And I read it back-to-back with Relinquished by Gretchen Sisson, and it was those two books that were in conversation together. And so, it was so interesting to read her book on adoption at the same time, right after reading Dorothy Roberts' book on the family policing system. And then the other nonfiction one that I will read anything he writes is Erik Larson, so, like: Devil in the White City; Garden of the Bees.

Tarah: Oh, interesting.

Jennie: I've never picked him up, and I've been meeting. So, Devil in the White City is H.H. Holmes told alongside the story of the Chicago Fair because they were happening together. So, one thread of the story is following H.H. Holmes, the other thread is following how the Chicago Fair was developed and built and all the things. He's just really fascinating. And again, he's a really good storyteller, and I have been really interested in a lot of the things he has written. So, he has one in Nazi Germany, one he just did one on the Civil War, part of the Civil War, and then one around Churchill. And there's also a really interesting one about a murder in, I think, God, I can't remember if it was in London. It was somewhere in England, and the first wireless communication, it's called Thunderstruck. So, they had escaped on a boat, and this was their first, like, trying to send a cable to like a boat in progress as it was like coming to Canada so that they could get the people from the boat. So, it was just really fascinating, telling these two stories together of the technology developing and then this murder that happened. So, he just- yes.

Tarah: What about fiction? Take us from the real to the more real. Yes. Into fiction.

Jennie: I will always have a super soft spot in my heart for Jane Austen. I really love reading her stuff. So many stories are like retellings of the stories she built, right? I really love Pride and Prejudice and Persuasion in particular; those are like my two favorites of hers. Also, recently, Rachel Gillig does really good gothic fantasy. She's got The Shepherd King duology, which has this really interesting tarot-based magic system that's really interesting. And then the new one that she has, where the second in the duology is coming out in like a couple weeks, which I'm excitedly waiting for, called The Stonewater Kingdom. The book coming out is The Knave and the Moon, which will be the second in that duology. I've really enjoyed her stuff so far, and I'm really loving that.

Tarah: Coming soon to the public library near you.

Jennie: Yes. And then The Legend Born Cycle by Tracy Dion. If you haven't read that, it is just [such a] delightful reimagining. I don't even know if you'd call it reimagining. It's like Arthurian legend, deals with race, and so many other things. And again, kind of in that fantasy realm, just delightful. And I'll stop there because I could go on forever. And there's other questions.

Tarah: I mean, this is really related to like: how do you stay hopeful and how do you stay engaged? Which is like we read a lot, right? You read a lot. For sure. Both like nonfiction, but also fiction and stories that imagine different and weird worlds or distracting spaces or ways to just imagine something different and keep your brain happy and healthy and in your spirit as well. Yeah, more books. Hot take. Read more books, audience. Read more books. Well, let's think a little bit more about our work and the movement. There's a question here around the youth engagement and the reproductive rights movement, and I'll read it and then would love to talk more about it with you. So, the question is this: the reader with her ears, the listener was wondering where you see the disconnect between leaders in the reproductive rights movement and youth movements. Maybe I'm missing a big part of this, but I feel oftentimes the youth engagement with these issues are underwhelming, and I'm wondering what your take is on this. So, this is a really interesting question, and we sort of pre-chatted about this question, but I'm really interested, like, how do you start and address a question like this? What are you seeing in terms of the disconnect between the reproductive rights movement and other youth movements and youth in general, which is a big, big category with a lot of diversity?

Jennie: Yeah, I mean, and I think that's kind of also how you're seeing it being addressed is like there are a lot of groups doing interesting things to engage with young people in a number of different ways. And everybody kind of has their own lane that they're staying in a little bit. So, I don't know that there's like a big, like, repro youth, everybody is doing the same thing where you would be getting the same message, you may be seeing different parts of it and then not realizing it's like all coming from the similar place, right? So, you have Power to Decide doing the Bedsider where people can go and learn about contraception and what works for them and get a lot of their questions answered. Advocates for Youth has a lot of work they're doing with young people. In particular, they have AMAZE where you can go and watch videos. And I think there are lots of other things that they have where you can get like sex education and make sure you are getting fact-based information and getting all of the things that you may not be getting in school. They also have an AMAZE Jr., which is for adolescents, like for parents with young kids to help them work, talk about it. Like you can start talking about consent really young. So, like it has tools for parents and kids on their stuff. So, AMAZE and AMAZE Jr. are really great. I know Planned Parenthood has student chapters on college campuses. So, like I think there's like a number of things happening. I just don't know that there is like a big, coalesced movement built in the same way you have seen some of the things where you have seen like the gun violence movement where you see it reaching across and having lots of conversations happening together. And if it is happening, I'm not seeing it as I'm not in those spaces because I do a lot on the global side. So, I might not be in the right spaces to have the right answers.

Tarah: Well, and I don't want to call either of us out here, but we are not youth. No, I am not.

Jennie: And then I had recently reached out to someone about doing a perimenopause and menopause episode because I'm like, you know what?

Tarah: News you can use. Yeah, I mean, I think maybe underlying this question is a feeling or a frustration or a curiosity around why the listener is not seeing a sort of as big of a push as they think they should be seeing. And I think this is really interesting. It’s a really interesting question. I don't think the answer is that young people are not concerned about these issues. Yeah. That doesn't make any logical sense. It doesn't track with data on what young people say about themselves and their bodies and the concerns they have. But I do wonder, in a bigger sense, I think to me, there's a couple of questions. One is like, what are we doing in like the established reproductive rights movement who have professionalized or who are connected with organizations as volunteers or as you know, whatever else? What is that, what does it mean to engage youth? And are we being directed by them? Are we hoping they'll show up to the party that we throw for ourselves with all the fun music we like? And I think about this a lot in terms of all the types of inclusion, diversity, and equity initiatives that you see, and sometimes whether it's an organizational structure or a church or a group, and they're like, we just would welcome anybody, and you keep offering the things that only certain people like, right? You only- the music you play at the party is all from the '90s. Well, guess what? Like folks [weren’t born yet]. This is a silly example because it's kind of an easy one to imagine. Like when you throw a party and you're like, oh gosh, why didn't this group come? Did the party at all reflect anything that they would have wanted? And I am really curious about, I don't know what the numbers are. There isn't that I'm aware of, although folks, please, please, please send it in. The data on youth engagement and reproductive rights issues, it's really hard to track that type of data. And I don't know that it's out there, but I don't know that it's that they're participating in it less, to be honest, as much as it might look very different than what we're thinking. And I do know there is youth data tracking on large protest movements. So, the over last year and part of this year has been a lot of data tracking on the pro-Palestinian rights movements and the protest focused on Gaza, and over 32% of those were youth-led. I mean, that's a huge chunk of a massive national protest movement that was youth-led. So, it's not that youth aren't engaging, right? The question is are we seeing them in the issue as we want to do it?

Jennie: It just could be in different ways, right? Like also, are they doing storytelling instead of protesting? Are they doing peer work instead of something more visible? So, I think they are engaging, but in different ways as well.

Tarah: I just also wonder if we're offering them anything worth engaging with. Like, I mean, when Roe fell and so much of this is like, oh my god, we have to get this back, which is not untrue. Like, we gotta get something back, right? But like that's not offering a good, that's not a good thing to offer. Roe is terrible. And yeah, now it's much worse without it. Like, it's way worse without it. But I wonder, like, what are we offering a sort of vision that is radical enough for people, also people who've come up, and again, dear listener, Jennie and I are of a certain generation. I think we are actually technically of different generations, but by only a couple years, which is like the world looks radically different than it did when I was younger. Like, when I was in high school, the world was a radically different place. Power worked radically differently. You could count on certain things, you could hope that certain actions would make certain changes. And that's just not the world that folks who are under, let's say, 25 grew up in, right? Like it's just a total paradigm shift. So to me, the interesting thing about this question, I mean, if someone has the data on youth engagement and reproductive rights work, whether it's local protests, whatever else, please send it in to Jennie into the pod, because I think that's so interesting to dive into. Yeah. But I think this is such a good moment for self-reflection. Like, is our vision bold enough for young people who, by the way, are seeing so many different things on fire in the world? There's so many different things. And so, like, if we're not offering a vision that is radical and inclusive, they're gonna be like, guys, look, look what's happening with Gaza, look what's happening in the environment, look what's happening with BLM. Like, I've got things to do. So, how are we making sure that we're relevant and offering the world they want to see?

Jennie: Yeah, and I’ll just add that this question came from one of our interns this summer. So, it definitely came from a young person. So, this is what she feels like she is seeing, right? So yeah, just how do we engage that, right?

Tarah: And I think, as folks know, listeners of the pod may recall I work with Amnesty International, and obviously we're a very broad mission organization, all human rights for all people. So, our strategic plan process is like yeah, it's very small. I mean, it is a real Colosseum battle when you're making strategic plans on what we're gonna focus on. So, like I come from a broad mission org, understanding that people get involved with Amnesty for very different reasons. They maybe get involved because they see how devastatingly unfair the death penalty is, or they have a personal connection to or read and were concerned about what's happening in Tibet, or they are, maybe they met us through our abortion rights work, and so they've joined because they want to do reproductive rights work. So, we have this issue where folks drove for all these reasons, and all those things are all equally important. Yeah. Not one thing is more important than something else. Rights are not the “Oppression Olympics,” right? Yeah, the lack of rights that you feel is the same for someone else feeling the lack of rights. Now people have privileges and all that, you know, we can think around that, but like all these rights are equally important. So, how are we making sure that we're offering a vision that is inclusive and holistic so that when we're talking about reproductive rights with our activists or our audiences, it's not like somehow separate than the death penalty work, somehow separate than Tibetan rights or then the rights of Palestinians or, or, or, right? And I think that that's something I don't know that the reproductive rights movement, myself included, are like that great at. And I think part of that's the history of activism on this issue in our in our country specifically, and the sort of way that it has focused, you gotta make a goal, you gotta get a strategic plan, you gotta like make a goal you can try and reach, but like, man, we part I think we're losing parts of that because like our we're not aiming high enough or and we're not inclusive enough in sort of how that's you know, how we can talk to people who care about all those things. So, I mean, what a great question. And folks, I hope people write in to you with like more follow-ups or actual, and I would, you know, I would love to hear what folks think about this and how we as a movement and all our different varieties of who we are, whether we're professionalized or not, like what are we seeing and how do we make sure it is relevant? Because boy, the folks who are 18 now have fewer rights than I did when I was 18. And that is really stunning to think about. And so, how are we making sure that they then see the urgency of engaging in this work with us? Yeah, what a great question. To which we had no real answer.

Jennie: Yes.

Tarah: Thank you, listeners.

Jennie: Sorry!

Tarah: But what a good juicy question.

Jennie: I know it came in and I was like, oh, I mean, we have to talk about it, but oh, I don't have a good answer.

Tarah: Yeah, what a great question. I wish technology existed where this could be like a giant round table. One day we'll figure that out. Yeah. Folks can pop in. I love that. Maybe that's like what Reddit is. I don't really know. Once again, not a young person. So, out of the frying pan here and into personal fire in some more fun questions. So, one listener says, I would love to hear about your style because I always love the outfits you wear. I also love your outfits, Jennie. I think they're so bold and wonderful. So, this person says they always feel thoughtful and cohesive. What fashion sparks joy for you?

Jennie: It's so funny because I definitely don't think of myself as a stylish person. I feel like I have firmly entered my, like, comfortable. I want to be comfortable.

Tarah: Yes. Those things can coexist.

Jennie: Yeah. Correct. I really go with, like, I think this person hit it. Like what brings me joy, that's what I look for when I'm getting clothes and shoes and stuff, is like what makes me happy and what brings me joy. So, I tend to be very colorful and bright and have very little that is like black or monotone except for pants. I don't really wear bold colored pants as much.

Tarah: I don't know why. I was super hoping that that sentence was gonna end: I don't really wear… pants.

Jennie: Yeah, no, I really don't wear pants.

Tarah: But I look, it's a digital world and a podcast land. Who knows?

Jennie: So, like, bright and colorful, and that goes for shoes too, right? Like, I really love fun shoes. I used to really love heels, as listeners may not know. I am only five foot, so I used to wear heels a lot because I'm short. But as I moved to DC and had to, like, walk everywhere, heels really rotated out of my wardrobe. Like, I still had some clunky heels or things that were more comfortable to walk in, but like high heels really mostly went away. And then I felt like I had injured an ankle like one too many times, and not because of the shoes, but just in general. Where now, I just really can't wear heels, like my ankle is like, no, we're not doing this. So yeah, I really go for comfort and fun, particularly in shoes. So, I really love Hot Chocolate shoes. If anybody has seen me, I have lots of patterned fun shoes. My favorite pair is a pair of Mary Janes skeleton feet that I have for Halloween, and I think they have finally given up the ghost, and I have to throw them away, and that's making me so sad. And I hope Hot Chocolate brings them back. But yeah, I yeah, I think my style is fun and, like, bold colors and prints.

Tarah: That is, I mean, one of the things is it's something that you have fun with. Yeah. And also, the body is not an apology. Wear what you want. Like, who cares?

Jennie: Yes.

Tarah: Who cares? Yeah, I love your fashion. I am in like so many ways the opposite. Not fashion, because I don't like thinking about what I wear. I'd just rather- I look forward to that dystopian universe in which we're all in onesies because I don't- the amount of mental thought I have to put into things. So, I tend to have a lot of like neutrals because like, oh, praise the Lord, my brain doesn't have to figure out whatever else.

Jennie: But I've definitely moved into black pants so that I can wear all of the bright colored shirts, so then I don't have to wear- because same, I don't want to have to sit back in my closet and go, like, what am I gonna wear?

Tarah: Yeah, it's a great question. Again, all these questions are kind of like: how do we live real lives through this time of this time of horrors? And all the horrors, the horrors persist, but so do we. Another question. There are a couple questions about your background. You've mentioned a couple of times that you went to Catholic school, and so you got your sex ed from Catholic school. So, this listener wanted to ask, if you're willing to talk more about it, I think it could be interesting to hear about your experience in Catholic school, sex ed from a nun, etc. I'd love to know how that informed your views on comprehensive sex ed or other repro issues, and if that changed over time. And we've talked a lot about this together too.

Jennie: Yes. Yes, so I think they do this in other so this I can just talk about what I had, because I don't know. So, there was definitely a big part of it where they separated the boys and girls so that the boys could learn their part and the girls could learn their part. So that is when I had Sister Rosemary for sex ed. We went to the little rectory that she lived in and had tea and whatever.

Tarah: I mean, so far, a strong start.

Jennie: Yeah. So, obviously I got really well informed. No, I don't have super clear memories of it because again, like Tarah said, we are of a certain age. It has been quite a while since I had sex ed, but I often refer to it as the Mean Girls’ version of sex ed, where it's like you're gonna have sex, get this horrible disease, and you're gonna die. I also remember there was a lot of like if birth control came up, and it didn't a ton, because like you shouldn't be having sex, sex is for procreation, that condoms don't work, birth control doesn't really work, so like you shouldn't you shouldn't use them because they don't really work anyway.

Tarah: More of a sex miseducation, as it was.

Jennie: Yes, I think that is very true. It's very sex miseducation. We had a, I think it was only a weekend, like a weekend retreat called "Valuing Your Sexuality" that was in the church basement. I think there was an overnight. Don't quote me on that. I can't quite remember. I think there was play-acting, saying no, girls, it's on you, like all that type of stuff you see. I was like before purity culture was like a big thing, but you could see how this would lead to purity culture. Like, I don't think we had quite the things you had heard about like gum or tape or like any of those types of like examples that you hear later in purity culture versions of sex ed, but we definitely had the like sex is for procreation, you shouldn't have it, you'll get this horrible disease. I remember my most traumatizing thing from the valuing your sexuality weekend was my parents were among the teachers. Oh god, which God bless them, but also ew, and I was really traumatized by that. Obviously, I was never in their group, and so kids would apparently come up to me and be like, your parents are so fun, and like whatever. And I'm just like, I could please know nothing about this. Like, shut this door, like so hearing all of this, right? Telling me that birth control doesn't work, that condoms don't work, so why use them? It sets you up for failure when you start making decisions later in your life. I was set up to fail. That is not good for anybody. I also never got, and maybe this is a generational thing and not just a Catholic school thing, like what healthy relationships look like, or this is what intimate partner violence looks like. If I had maybe been more aware, I would have recognized that I was in a bad relationship where there was intimate partner violence. If I had understood what it was because it was something I was taught in a class like sex ed, but I never got something like that. So, I didn't recognize it honestly until I started doing this work, right? And was like, oh, oh, that was bad. Like, it wasn't the frame I had for what just domestic violence or intimate partner violence was at that point, was incomplete, right? Like the version we saw in the late '90s was very different from our understanding of this kind of full spectrum of what intimate partner violence looks like now. So, it only was as I started doing this work and working on it in other contexts that I could look back and be like, oh shit, like I'm a survivor because I that's not how I ever identified myself before because I did not know that that's what I was until I started doing this work.

Tarah: I mean, that whole conversation just makes me think about the missed opportunities that we have with young, younger people who are in school and particularly in junior high and high school, around setting people up for just maximum success, right? Not just around reproductive health, but like you're saying: healthy relationships; navigating complex issues; what does it mean to live with your own body in ways that are gonna be healthy and don't set you up, not just for like sexual and reproductive health issues, but like body issues.

Jennie: Yeah, and I think the other thing I didn't bring up, but I know you and I have talked about before, is like the other thing that this education brought up and taught me, and is very Catholic-coded, Catholic-Irish in particular for me coded, is shame.

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: Shame around sexuality and talking about sex and all of those things. And while I may have learned to change the way I talk and think about some of those things, man, that shame is sticky and it lingers and still shows up in ways I think about things or talk about things, not with other people, right? Because I would never judge other people like that, but it's like yourself, right? Like, how you view your actions or what you did. You have that shame from the things you were taught that sticks really hard and for a long time.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah. And yeah, what a- shame is so sticky, and that influences every facet of your life, yeah, and not just sexual, reproductive life, which is your whole life, right? But like all the things that you, the way you think about yourself, the way you think about your career, the way you think about your place in your community, like that is gonna shape that. What a missed opportunity. Yeah, it makes me really value a lot— and I don't think we hear about it enough— the folks that are doing work on sex ed and fighting for sex ed in schools and creating materials and programs that people can use when the state, which is, you know, their schools are failing them, like access to accurate, fact-based sex education is in fact a human right. And we're not getting it. Yeah, so it just makes me think of some of the resources that you listed earlier, too, for youth engagement. A lot of those are around like sex ed and like j like knowledge base. And I know you'll put those in the notes, so people have access to them. I think a lot too, so I don't I don't have kids and my but my brother does, and they're good loving parents who are gonna be healthy as they as you can be around [the topic of] sex with their kids, and just always let my nephews know that they have someone if they ever have questions. Like, how can you be a healthy adult in some child's life?

Jennie: And that's so important because like I— and again, this could be like growing up Irish Catholic— like, you didn't talk about these things, right? Like the taboo sex that I learned was from school, and like I talked about like the really good conversation I had with my mom about going to like an anti-abortion protest and like help shape my thinking, but that was like the one conversation there wasn't like further like open conversation about sex and sexual, like all of that stuff. It was just like if I go to this protest or not.

Tarah: Yeah, and it's hard, it's hard to have awkward conversations with your kids, it's hard to have awkward conversations with your parents.

Jennie: This is, but then you learn that those are awkward conversations, and it becomes like this self-fulfilling thing, right?

Tarah: But then you do it and you're like, oh, this is really necessary.

Jennie: Yeah, so then I learned that these are hard and awkward conversations, and so between that and the sex ed, then like it is really impacted like how I have conversations with people later.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah. Well, let's end on a question of creativity, and I think a lot around how, like, just what it means to be human in this moment. And I think a lot of us in the movement feel real guilt when we're not 24-7 in whatever way we think we're supposed to be showing up in some visible way. And I think that it can be good to be self-thoughtful around how we're throwing, how we're showing up and throwing down on these issues and allowing that we are like full human bodies that have human needs. And some of those are rest, by the way. And some of those, like we need people to rest because we need you for the long haul. We don't want you to flame out now, baby. We need you, I need you making good decisions about my social security and my reproductive needs at that point, and my sex and reproductive needs at that point. And also, like, we get to live in this world and be creative and joyful, human. So, this is a question I was really interested in from one of your readers. You're again, you're readers with their ears, which are in fact called listeners, Jennie. Yeah. "Dear reader, I married him."

Jennie: But they could read, they could read the transcript.

Tarah: I bet you're also readers, everyone out there. So, here's the question: you've talked about doing cross-stitching recently. What inspired you to start doing it and how did you learn? And if I can tag on to that question, like, what do you think is the role of creativity and creation? Which I'm gonna say is like different than art, because I don't know what, how do you define art? I don't know. But what do you think is the role of creativity and creation in our work? Other than just like you can make some bomb ass signs if you're a good drawer, like outside of that.

Jennie: Yeah, I think it's like an outlet, right? Like it's like it helps give you an outlet to express yourself. And so, like, for a while that was like baking and doing bread, and I have scaled back on that recently, and so I have been doing cross stitch recently, and it gives me an outlet for some of that energy. I am a homebody introvert, so I like having little cozy hobbies. I was knitting for a long time. I've kind of scaled back. I was nowhere near as good a knitter as Tarah is. Like, Tarah is amazing and actually makes things you can wear. I do like blankets, so like different-

Tarah: It's all knitting. It's all knitting.

Jennie: It's all knitting, but like she's much more known. So, for cross stitch, my grandma taught me. I also feel like my mom was involved at some point, but I have a more clear memory of her mother. I used to go for a week each summer to stay with each of my grandparents, and so one summer grandma taught me how to crochet. She was a crocheter and not a knitter. I don't really remember how to do that. Like it was like I learned it that week while I was there.

Tarah: It involves hooks. It looks like witchcraft to me. People assume when you can knit, you can crochet.

Jennie: No, they’re very different things.

Tarah: I don't dance with the devil, thank you.

Jennie: And I remember her teaching me how to do cross stitch, and I remember doing projects when I was younger, and then I quit for decades. And I was looking for an outlet several years ago, and I ran across this little book online that also had like a mini kit with it that was Golden Girls Cross Stitch Patterns. Amazing, yeah, yes, so obviously I bought it and did one from it, and then I didn't do anything else. I went back to my knitting and whatever. Yes, and I don't know, just randomly last year I was like, I think actually I bought the kits a couple years ago, and then I, all of a sudden, was like I'm going to do cross stitch instead now. And I am very much, like I said, a homebody, so like it gives me something to do while I'm watching TV, so I don't feel like I'm not being productive, which is also bad thinking, right? Like, do I feel like I need to be productive?

Tarah: I feel like that is a knitter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, TV is not great for us to be real, but like I'm still doing some cracks, yeah, yeah. No, I understand that. It's one way to also keep your brain working, cracks, if nothing else. Because, like, look, TV isn't actually great for our brains, and so how can we keep our brain going without feeling like because I can't relax, I don't deserve to be calm, right?

Jennie: So, there's that, and I also have started doing it listening to audiobooks, which is also delightful. Nice, and I so my version of creative is discovering the stamped cross stitch kits instead of counted cross stitch kits. Oh, so that means I don't need to go back and forth between a pattern. So, it's all right on the fabric. So, I am just doing it, and I don't need to be super focused. So, all of the pink areas of the thing I'm working on right now are black stitches, like all of the blue L's are this color. So, like I don't need to then go, okay, there's 10 black, 10, which was like too much focus, and like I couldn't do, but now these stamped ones, like I can just do it while I'm watching TV and it's brainless, or while I'm listening to an audiobook, and mom turned one of mine into a pillow. I did a thing for her for Mother's Day. So, like, I've just bought things, like, kind of back to the clothes conversation that brought me joy. So maybe they're silly, funny looking, but they are bright and colorful and make me happy. I have no intention necessarily of like hanging them or doing things with them, but people may get random gifts of like this silly thing I cross-stitched because it's more about the process of doing because it's relaxing and feeding my like creativity to do something and produce something, but I don't necessarily need it as like I need it to hang on my wall or whatever.

Tarah: I mean, it's not a stretch to say this is also about the movement, it is the process. We are in it for the long haul. And like we need creative outlets, right? So, here's some more cross-stitching and knitting and even crocheting.

Jennie: I need bifocals.

Tarah: Oh, yeah, that's real. I have the ones that transition. The changing body, folks. This is our bodies ourselves. We're in the closing chapters of that book. We used to be in the opening chapters. Well, it's a good reminder to everyone who's listening. You're listening because you care about this topic, because you're amazing. Yeah, because you want to see a better world.

Jennie: Can I throw one more thing and I would have loved to include it?

Tarah: Yes.

Jennie: Because something that is bringing me joy, and I was gonna talk about in the box o' books. If you haven't discovered them yet, and this is maybe specifically for Tarah, but honestly, everybody should read them. Have you discovered The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lion?

Tarah: No, tell me more.

Jennie: They're so delightful. It takes place in the 1800s. It's a series, there are eight of them out now. They're bite-sized, although they are getting longer as they go. But like the first one was like less than a hundred pages, they're like small, and it's like her diary that you're reading. It's like these quirky characters in this neighborhood in London. She is her cousin, like stole all her money, and so she doesn't have any money and is still not like at her majority. And how she's exploring the world and getting through the world, and this found family that she has created around her. It's just delightful. There are eight of them out. It sounds like they're supposed to be 24, which honestly feels like not enough. Dang, but they're just like a delightful slice of life, found family. Yeah.

Tarah: Well, I mean, you've heard the advice here, listeners. Read more books, listen to more books, do more craft, have time that you're creating. It is good for the joy. It is good for you. Find your joy, wear bright colors if you like bright colors. Wear dull colors if you like dull colors.

Jennie: Yes.

Tarah: And get us through the next day because we need you all on the other side. Jennie, it is always a delight to talk to you about anything, but especially to be on an Ask Me Anything. I love hearing what your listeners are thinking about, both the deep questions about the movement and what seem like light questions are really deep questions, but like how do we exist as movement activists? And it means finding joy, doing crafts, doing the things that give us joy, and making sure we can provide joy to others as we go. So, thank you so much, listeners, for allowing me to be in the hot seat today, to be their host. And Jennie, thank you and congratulations on your amazing show, as always.

Jennie: Aw thanks, Tarah, and I will see everybody next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media. We're at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform, or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all.