Emergency Pod: The Supreme Court Overturns Roe v. Wade

On Friday, June 24th, 2022, the Supreme Court released their decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization, where they rejected 50 years of precedent by overturning Roe v. Wade. The decision eliminates the federal right to abortion access and sends it back to the states to decide. This will decimate abortion access in this country, as 26 states are likely to ban abortion in the wake of this decision. Kylie Cheung, staff writer at Jezebel, joins us to talk about the decision and what it means going forward.

This ruling will leave many people confused and scared, and many abortion providers and clinic staff in chaos. As abortion access becomes decisions for individual states, many people will be unaware of where to go to access care. This is a gross violation of human rights, and de-values bodily autonomy and equitable access to health care. Undoubtedly, the Supreme Court’s decision will be disproportionately felt by Black, Indigenous, and people of color, those with low incomes, young people, people with disabilities, and the LGBTQI+ community.

Long before the overturning of Roe, people have been arrested, investigated, and tried for miscarriages or self-management of abortion. Criminal charges related to pregnancy have tripled since the passage of Roe v. Wade, particularly for people of color. This very real threat will worsen with half of U.S. states poised to ban or severely limit abortion. This may result in a chilling effect of medical professionals, who may be unsure or unwilling to give care due to fear.

If you need an abortion, require support from the Repro Legal Defense Fund, want to find an abortion fund to donate to, or want to protect your digital security, find more information in the links below:

Links from this episode

Welcome to the ‘Total Chaos’ Era of Abortion Access
Kylie Cheung on Twitter
Kylie Cheung Reporting at Jezebel
INeedAnA.Com
Information about self managed abortion
Repro Legal Helpline
The Repro Legal Defense Fund covers bail and funds strong defenses for people who are investigated, arrested, or prosecuted for self-managed abortion.
Abortion Fund Donation Finder
Donate to independent clinics through Keep Our Clinics
Protect your digital security with Digital Defense Fund

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more – giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Hi, rePROs. How's everybody doing? Thank you for joining me for an emergency episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I am recording this on Friday, so I am still a little all over the place by what happened. And, you know, we, we knew, right? Like we knew the Supreme Court was gonna strike down Roe. That has not made this any easier. It still hit me just as hard and definitely swinging between crying at my desk and being really nauseous. So I just…I hope you all are taking some space to do what you need for self-care. After I record this, I'm actually gonna head down to the Supreme Court, actually go to our office. It's right near the Supreme Court and open up the space, so people who are protesting, that are in the movement can come and charge their phones and stuff and provide my support that way. So, it, it's nice to feel like I have something to do. I already did some donating, but I just have say before we get to the episode that just…my heart is just utterly breaking for the people who need abortions and are not gonna be able to go and get one today or tomorrow. I'm furious that on a 6-3 vote, the Supreme Court decided that I don't have the right to bodily autonomy. That's gonna have so many ramifications, y'all…for so many things. I'm really scared. I'm absolutely scared about what comes next. You know, if you read Justice Thomas's concurrence. He specifically called out Griswold protecting birth control for married people. He called out same sex marriage in Obergefell. He called out same sex relationships in Lawrence. It is not good y'all. And while he didn't call out Loving around interracial relationships, we have seen lots of conversations around that in other spheres, so I'm just really scared about what this means going forward. And, you know, thinking of all of those ripple effects…like, that is just utter tragedy going forward. What happened today? And the assault on birth control and bodily autonomy is enough, right? It is more than enough to tell me that I don't have any say in what I can do with my body, that the state can force me to carry a pregnancy I don't want. They're taking away the ability to make choices about my body. That is bullshit. And I am furious. And we should all be furious. I just go between that and just…my heart breaking for people who are now gonna be forced by the state to carry pregnancies they don't want and…or can't carry, or any number of things. And it is, it's just devastating. And I'm devastated. I think…it also just makes me think of…no matter what the Supreme court said, right? Abortion is healthcare. Abortion is a human right. And today is not the end of a fight. It is just the beginning of the fight. And we will keep going forward to ensure that everyone is able to access the abortion care they need. So I guess before I cut to the interview, I'll just shout out some resources that I think will be helpful. We'll include that in our show notes as well. If you're trying to find the closest abortion provider to close to you, a really great resource is I need an a, I need an abortion.com. So it's, ineedana.com and It’ll help you find the provider closest to you. Also make sure you're donating to your local abortion fund. We will include information on that in our show notes as well. Educate yourself around self-managed abortion. We'll include links to Reproaction’s really great guide on understanding and advocating for self-managed abortion. With that as well, if you need legal advice around any of this, If/When/How has a Repro Legal Help Hotline that is really helpful, that we'll also include notes for so that you can have all of the resources you need going forward for yourself, for others to share. Yeah, so…the fight goes on. It is not over. We will keep fighting. The podcast goes on, we will keep covering all of these issues. Okay y'all. Take some time to rest, recover, protest if you can, if you want to. Make your voice heard. Talk to everybody, everybody about this and how you're feeling. Just know that we see you. We're in this fight together. My love goes out to all of the abortion providers, and clinic workers, and all of the advocates in the trenches right now. We are all exhausted, and tired, and angry, and frustrated. And I just, I see you, and I'm sending you all lots of love. And then finally, just know that everybody loves someone who had an abortion. and I know I do. I'm sure all of you do. And, just sending lots of love and care and support to all of the people who have had abortions, to the people who are desperately trying to get an abortion now. We're, we're still fighting for you. I guess, with that, let's turn to this emergency episode’s interview. I talked to Kylie Cheung at Jezebel about what the hell happened today and, uh, what it means. So with that, let's turn my interview with Kylie. Hi Kylie. Thank you so much for being here.

Kylie: Hi. Um, thank you so much for having me on.

Jennie: Before we jump in. Do you wanna take a quick second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Kylie: Sure. I'm Kylie. My pronouns are she/her. And, um, yeah. I'm a staff writer at Jezebel, where I've been doing a lot of reporting on reproductive rights, abortion access, and pregnancy criminalization issues, so I'm a big fan of your podcast and happy to…or not happy, but, um, thankful to be talking about this you today.

Jennie: Yeah. I have been so excited to see Jezebel, like, really, like, exploding in the last year or so, and doing, like, so much more reporting in this space. I mean, you've…they've always done reporting, but I just feel like there's just like been this huge boom in the last whatever, where just so many more people covering things, and it's been great to see that come back.

Kylie: Oh, great. Yeah.

Jennie: And, you know, following you.

Kylie: Oh, thank you. Yeah. Some of the people I, I work with have been like reporting on this for, like, just so, so long. So yeah. I, I love what we put out as well.

Jennie: Okay. And, like you said, I’m happy to talk to you about terrible, terrible things, which, again, is, I guess the theme of the podcast.

Kylie: Yeah…

Jennie: So, we are recording this on Friday. This probably won't come out until Monday, but we're recording this on Friday, and shit got real. So, what happened at the Supreme Court today?

Kylie: Yeah. Well, you know, as we've known since May, when that draft opinion on the Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health decision was released…yeah, well, Roe v. Wade has been overturned by the Supreme Court and, you know, it's simultaneously, it's not an entirely surprising decision because this is an outcome that Republican anti-abortion lawmakers have been really building toward and investing all of their resources in for, just decades now. But at the same time, you know, it doesn't have to be surprising to be, to just be totally gutting and devastating. And so, yeah. And so, you know, now that Roe has been overturned, what that means is, in states that have, that may have had, that may have banned abortion prior to Roe, or created what are called trigger laws to immediately are almost immediately ban abortion when Roe is overturned, you know, it's in those states that we're going to see abortion be banned and possibly criminalized. And so, what, you know, the overturning of Roe does is effectively open the door for states to ban and criminalize abortion. And, you know, we have, I think according to the research from Guttmacher Institute, I believe it's 22 states that have pre-Roe v. Wade abortion bans that could possibly take effect soon, as well as trigger laws that could immediately, or almost immediately take effect. And we have, you know, many states in addition to that who have, prior to this decision, I believe in 2019, you know, there's that wave of six week or near total abortion bans, but many were blocked in court, I believe. And so, yeah. Those are all fair game as well. I mean, it's just, I've spoken with independent providers, I've spoken with abortion funds who have been helping people, you know, overcome some of these just massive, already existing barriers for years. And, you know, I mean, the consensus is that it's just now…I don't know. We're just about to see abortion access in total chaos across the country. And, you know, it's never been easy. It truly hasn't. The legal right, that recognition that like pregnant people in this country are human beings and not just state controlled incubators…I mean, that was always important too, even if, you know, it didn't guarantee access to abortion. And so, without that, it's just, it's chaos. It's just, it's devastating. It's dehumanizing. And you know, we're going to have to rely on each other and rely on mutual aid networks and, um, you know, a lot of the organizations and infrastructure that activists have already had in place for years now. And, um, and yeah, I think…sorry. I'm just ranting at this point, but I think the only thing left…

Jennie: I mean, the only response to have today, right? Is like…ranting about what is happening.

Kylie: Absolutely. And yeah, I mean, I'm almost done with this first tangent, but I think the one thing I would add is I feel like it is…there's tremendous privilege in states that are, like, “blue states,” I guess, that do have, that will maintain these abortion rights on the state level. But even so, I wouldn't say that if you live in these states, you know, it's gonna be…you're not gonna be affected because abortion access is just such a national issue in the sense that, like, we've already seen one Texas ban abortion immediately, Oklahoma was inundated with abortion seekers and across not even just Oklahoma, but across the country, out of state, patients increased substantially as well. So, you know what we're really going see is abortion is just going to be more inaccessible, even in states where there is that right. And those states have a moral obligation to be enacting legislation to make abortion care even more accessible for all of their in-state patients and everyone who's going to be traveling there for care.

Jennie: I think one of the things that is, like, the most apt of what you said that you see said so much is like, it's gonna be chaos. Like…

Kylie: Yeah.

Jennie: It's just gonna be utter chaos right now. There's gonna be so much confusion among the general population, right? Like, the Supreme Court says, Roe is overturned. They're gonna have people in states where it's legal thinking it's illegal, people who aren't following it closely, not knowing until they try and book an appointment and not knowing where they need to travel. Like it, it's just gonna be chaos for a while.

Kylie: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think that that's the word I heard from one of the people I worked with, or one of the people I interviewed who works at an independent clinic, and I mean already, it's just the education and the awareness about this issue. It's…yeah. There, I mean, to your point, there…just, it's confusing because you know, abortion access varies so much by state and that's about to become all the more so the case. And then in addition to that, I mean, you have, like, many of our leaders and top Democrats, even who are ostensibly “pro-choice,” it's just a huge issue where they won't even say the word abortion out loud. So, it's just like, how can we educate the public about this tremendously complicated issue in terms of abortion access when the people who are supposed to be legislating on this are so hesitant to even say that word? And there are real consequences to that, that we're seeing today, obviously, and before today too.

Jennie: Yeah. I really felt that today, listening to Joe Biden's statement where I was just like, I mean, he did finally say the word abortion in the statement, but like, there was so much “right to choose,” “a decision between a woman and a doctor,” like, just talking around the issue instead of, like, talking about the issue and, like, what it would mean, or what they were actually going to do. But that's another point, but yeah.

Kylie: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennie: It's just frustrating. I, all of it is just like…like I thought I was ready, like, we had this fair warning, which…

Kylie: Yeah.

Jennie: You know, I saw some people really talk about it as a blessing. Like, people were really able to, like, prepare even more, like, knowing it was coming, but it still just like hit me really hard this morning, and like the, the anger at, like, this is where we're at, the, like, heartbreak of thinking about people who aren't gonna be able to get the care they need, and the rage at, like, seeing Thomas's concurrence being like, “oh, but also birth control, same sex marriage and same sex relationships? We see you. We're coming.” And…

Kylie: Oh my God.

Jennie: It's just so scary.

Kylie: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you know, to your point about, like, I guess knowing about this and having that warning, but still just like that devastating emotional impact, you know, it's because like, it's, it's really, it's something that transcends, you know, politics and policy where it's this very visceral issue of like, it's a matter of, like, whether or not people are going to be forced to be pregnant against their will and, like, the deep physical, and emotional, and mental toll of that, and the fact that, you know, this is so prevalent in the sense that, you know, many people and, like, I've used medication abortion, like, many people are personally…you know, like, it really is, it's just about our bodies and our lives. And it's…sorry, again, I'm going on this tangent, but you know, I think the only normal, or the only reasonable reaction to have is just an incredibly emotional one because you know, what else is there really? And to your point about Thomas's concurrence, I mean, you know, it's like, again, it goes back to the whole, “it's not surprising, but devastating sense that…”

Jennie: We knew.

Kylie: You know, it's not even just him. It's just Republican senators, even just openly talking about things like interracial marriage, or same sex marriage, or birth control in these ways of, like, moving it back to the state level as we're seeing was the outcome with overturning Roe v. Wade. And it's just, like, I mean, it's really just their…the end goal of this institution that's always been very much rooted in maintaining power for very few people and subjugating everyone else. And it's just, it's not surprising, but it's still just, like, wow, like that's jarring. That's like, it's 2022. And you just want to believe that we're further than we are, but we are not…not…

Jennie: It is one of those things. It's, like, always shocking. Like, it's not surprising cuz, like, obviously we know that's, that's where they're at on these issues, but it's just still so shocking. Like, I'm sorry you want to relitigate interracial marriage and birth control and same sex couples? Like, I…what?

Kylie: Like, yeah, I mean, it, it really wasn't that long ago at all that the Supreme Court made birth control legal, first just for, like, married couples, not even just, like, if you're not mar-…I don't even know. It's just all of these things that we've kind of held as just… I don't know. Or…I don't know. I can't…like, I kind of grew up with as someone who was…yeah. I guess I'm…

Jennie: It's always been protected.

Kylie: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, I mean, I don't know, I guess, also to your point about just like how jarring all of these things are and, you know, like what we talked about in terms of this kind of limited awareness and public knowledge about this issue of reproductive rights, which has been made unnecessarily complicated by our politicians and such. I mean, that really makes me think about this issue of, like, pregnancy criminalization, where, for years now, long before this overturning of Roe v. Wade, people have been and will continue, like people have been arrested, and investigated, and prosecuted for, for miscarriages, for self-managing or allegedly self-managing an abortion. And you know, that's, I mean, we've seen criminal charges for this triple in the last…in recent years, compared with when Roe was first decided, so this is like a mounting issue, especially targeting people of color, Black, and Brown, and Indigenous people, especially who are disproportionately policed and more likely to experience pregnancy loss. I mean, this has been an issue, and yet, I think that there's such little awareness that, you know, yeah, for years people have been arrested and jailed for miscarriage and abortion and, you know, that very real threat is about to get even worse now, and, you know, I think that that's just, that's one thing that's really been top of mind for me just because, you know, I mean it even really goes back to misinformation where I've talked to different advocates and attorneys at the National Advocates for Pregnant Women and If/When/How, and it very much is this matter of this misapplication of existing laws around, like, “fetal homicide” and such. And, you know, I mean, like, that also goes back to really lack of awareness and lack of, like, understanding of these complex issues with regard to reproductive rights, where police department, and prosecutors, and local law enforcement, like, you know, whether you're in California or Texas. I mean, like there have been several cases of people being criminalized in California for their pregnancy outcomes. And, you know, let's say a local police department knows about the fall of Roe. I mean, they could interpret that as, um, being, I don't know, like it, it really just really comes down to misapplication of, you know, existing laws and misinformation, and you know, that can be huge. And so, the misinformation around the fall of Roe is extremely concerning in my opinion.

Jennie: Well, and I think the other thing that really drove it home this past week was the unfolding story of the American citizen in Malta who was miscarrying, and like, they wouldn’t give her the needed medical intervention that was necessary, an abortion, because the fetus still had a heartbeat. And, that is, like, horrifying. Like, that…we have seen that before, right? That is, that happened in Ireland and a pregnant woman died. Like…this could happen here, right? With, with way states may institute the restrictions on this, and it's just horrifying, like, lives are on the line in so many different ways.

Kylie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have so, so many thoughts about what you just brought up, cuz yeah, I was able to cover that for Jezebel as well as, you know, just earlier this year, there was a woman in Poland, which has a total ban on abortion, and she was forced to carry a dead fetus for a full week, and then she died after those pregnancy related complications. And, you know, I mean, to your point about, like, whether, like, the possibility of seeing this here, like, absolutely now that abortion is banned. Because, I mean, what that does, especially in a state that might criminalize or create…enact legislation that would imprison abortion providers, you know, it creates this huge fear to provide possibly life-saving abortion care, or, I mean, if you have abortion ban that maybe has “an exception” for like if the life of the pregnant person is at risk, you know, medical experts have just overwhelmingly talked about how that exception is actually extremely dangerous cuz, I mean, if you're waiting until, like, the death of the pregnant person is imminent to act, I mean, that's, in many cases, like as we saw in the specific Polish case of the Polish woman, I referenced, I believe that was the case where there, there was such delay in offering her that, what would've been lifesaving care. And now we know what the outcome of that was. And yeah. I mean, like to your point, like, the story I believe just yesterday or Thursday in Malta, I mean she had to seek help in terms of being airlifted from Malta to go to another country, to get, you know, possibly lifesaving abortion care. She has COVID and she has all of these risks for different infections, and hemorrhages, and that we've seen to be absolutely life-threatening when it comes to those pregnancy complications, and so, I think there's just a serious concern, obviously among doctors about facing criminalization. But, you know, in addition to that, I mean, it's, it's not even just, like, providers in terms of them offering care that the threat of criminalization impacts. I mean, like, let's say you're someone who's experiencing a miscarriage or stillbirth and we know that medication abortion and its impacts on the body, can't be, like, distinguished from just a miscarriage or a pregnancy loss, cuz it is inducing a miscarriage. And so, like, if you're experiencing that, like, there's obviously now tremendous risk of, depending on where you live, or even not, cuz I mean we've seen pregnancy criminalization in California in ostensibly blue states. And so, yeah. I mean there's just tremendous fears to even seek help when you could be experiencing possibly fatal health outcomes. And, you know, I mean, yeah, like, when we talk about the dangers of a society that bans abortion, I think historically that has been unsafe abortions pre-Roe v. Wade. But now, I mean, in this era where we do have very safe options for self-managed abortion through abortion pills, there's great medical safe…medication abortion is highly safe, medically safe. And yet, you know, when you're criminalizing pregnancy outcomes, when you're possibly criminalizing abortion, and you're creating this culture where pregnant people's bodies are just these sites of crime scenes, basically, like, of course there's tremendous legal risk and it's, it's very scary. It's…people will, I don't know, like, people, people will die, people will experience these pregnancy complications, not because abortion is dangerous, but because when we criminalize and ban it, there are all of these other outcomes.

Jennie: It just makes me think of, like, all of the things at risk. You know, I, I've read “The Turnaway Study” and, like, you hear all the, the implications of, like, not getting a wanted abortion, like, the economic impacts on the pregnant person, more likely to stay in an abusive relationship, again, putting their life at risk that way, carrying a child to term is in this country is not zero risk, right? The U.S. has the highest maternal mortality rate among rich nations. And so, it is a real risk, especially for Black women. And…people's lives are on the line.

Kylie: No, like, absolutely. And yeah, like, it's really, it's just really scary. Definitely. I mean, to your point, like, we know because we've seen, like, who is going to, like, shoulder the disproportionate impacts of this, and it's definitely lower income pregnant people, pregnant people of color and, you know, to your point, especially Black and Indigenous pregnant people who already face, you know, some of the most grave pregnancy and birth related outcomes, and it's truly mind boggling. I mean, even looking at the data of how states with more restrictions on abortion, they do have higher maternal mortality rates, and you know, it's just unthinkable what's happen now.

Jennie: So, I guess that leads us to, like, what's next? Okay, so, Roe…Roe is gone. What does this mean for people? I mean, we've started to about that, but like, how are people gonna access care or not?

Kylie: Yeah. You know, I mean, it's just so, like, the devastating reality is that, um, the overturning of Roe and banning abortions, it is going to block some people from being able to get abortion care, which is devastating. At the same time…I think that we have to acknowledge that reality and that stakes, but at the same time, you know there, I think, you know, in terms of what happens next, it's just going to be, honestly, just more crucial than ever that we're supporting abortion funds, particularly in states that have banned abortion because they're going to be helping people, you know, overcome all of these massive financial, logistical barriers to leave the state in order to get abortion care. And yeah, I mean, that's what we've been seeing already in states like Texas and other states that have more recently banned abortion, and we're just going to be seeing more of that across the country. And, there's just going to greater need than ever to really invest in supporting abortion funds, and supporting independent clinics and providers who are going to, you know, I've spoken some with the Abortion Care Network, who are really going to be innovating and trying to get people medication abortion, and trying to educate about that. In addition to supporting abortion funds, supporting independent clinics…I think it's also going to be really important for people to learn more about resource like If/When/How’s Repro Legal Defense Fund, which, you know, we were talking about the issue of pregnancy criminalization and that's certainly going to get worse. We're certainly going to see more devastating cases, like, I believe it was just in April, was Lizelle Herrera in Texas, who was arrested and jailed for allegedly having a self-managed abortion. And you know, I mean, it's so terrifying, but we're going to be seeing more of that, and I think that, you know, we've made a lot of progress in our conversations about how to help and how to be involved in this fight in recent years, where I don’t know, more and more celebrities and influencers have been raising up abortion funds as opposed to just Planned Parenthood. And I think that that's, that's truly great progress. And I also hope that we can learn more about, you know, the Repro Legal Defense Fund or National Advocates for Pregnant Women, and these groups who are offering legal support for people who are prosecuted or investigated for pregnancy loss or abortion. Because you know, that's absolutely happening, and again, it's gonna get worse.

Jennie: Yeah, for sure. I think Repro Legal Defense Fund…that's one we have not talked about on the podcast as much, so I'm really grateful that you raised them up because they are gonna be really important going forward. And, I think it's also really important to check out the Digital Defense Fund…

Kylie: Yes!

Jennie: For information about things people should be doing if they're going be accessing abortion care, cuz like, if, if abortion's gonna be investigated like a crime, you need to think about things like if you're searching for trying to find an abortion, or things like your period tracker app, or things like that, and what that is gonna mean. And they have great tools on their website.

Kylie: Yeah. Love the Digital Defense Fund’s work. And I believe it was in, like, last November, or shortly after I think the Texas abortion ban took effect, there was like this snitch hotline to report people that you suspected of having or helping people have abortions. And, that was obviously shut down, and that was obviously terrifying. But I think something I looked into is how, you know, I think that, you know, that was extremely menacing, but, you know, it's not even just hotlines like that. It's…we already see that, you know, the digital tools exist to surveil, to stock, to harass, and to punish and criminalize pregnant people, and I mean, it was literally just 2018 that, I believe it was Latice Fisher, who was a Black mother of three living in Mississippi, I believe, and she experienced a stillbirth. But shortly before that, she previously searched online for abortion pills, and so prosecutors used those online searches to basically charge her with, I believe, manslaughter, and say that the motive, like, literally they claimed the motive was…or evidence of that was her search for abortion pills, which is horrifying. And then, you know, even before that, we had Purvi Patel, who was a woman in Indiana, I believe who was paradoxically charged with both child endangerment and, like, feticide, which is like, if it…was it a child? Or was it like…they couldn't answer that but…

Jennie: Yeah.

Kylie: Yeah. I mean her texts with friends about abortion pills and her online searches for that were used as, like, evidence against her and you know, these are already happening, and we live in just a state with so many digital surveillance mechanisms, and it's so important to be really conscious of our digital footprints going forward because we've already seen that be used against people. And you know, again, without Roe it's, all of it is going to get worse. All of it is really already happening, and yet, the scale at which it's going to soon happen and the legal grounds for it to happen is just such a threat to our, our safety.

Jennie: Yeah. I think it’s hard to, like, wrap my head around, like, how bad it’s going to get in so many different areas. Like, could you have imagined the, like, Texas bounty hunter thing until it happened, right? So like, what is going to be the new frontier version of, of that, that is going after people trying to support pregnant people getting access to abortion?

Kylie: Yeah. I'm well, I don't wanna say I'm, I'm glad about you bringing that out, but I'm thankful for the opportunity to talk about that because, you know, I think that if we go back for a moment to March when Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson was, I believe it was her Senate confirmation hearings, you know, she was asked by some Republican senators about, like, when life begins. And so, I think for me that really set off a lot of alarms in terms of, you know, this possible direction we could be going toward personhood for embryos and fetuses because, you know, I think that that in many ways really is the end goal of the “pro-life” movement because, you know, it's, it's not even just abortion bands and to say just abortion bans, like it's, like, it's not…

Jennie: Like not a big deal, right?

Kylie: Yeah. But you know, I mean, like, we've even had recently like a bill in Texas, I believe, that was like, if you're a pregnant person, you can drive in the carpool lane, and you know, or we have these fetal homicide laws in 40 states that were created because, you know, for pregnant people, the number one cause of death is homicide, usually by a domestic abuser. And so, obviously we needed to create protections around that, but what many fetal homicide laws actually did was, you know, really create this legal recognition of, like, the embryo or fetus as, like, a separate person who could be killed. And, we've seen that weaponized against pregnant people if any of their actions or behaviors are alleged to have led to a pregnancy loss. And, you know, I mean, those are just some of the ways that we've already seen, you know, embryos and fetuses be humanized and be conferred this personhood that obviously comes at the cost of the pregnant person. And so, you know, I've talked to a lot of different people who have worked in the space of pregnancy criminalization, and you know, there really is this concern about how, you know, beyond abortion bans we’re going in that direction, and at that point, you know, it's, it's so terrifying because it all really becomes fair game, where if an embryo was a person, what about IVF? Or like, what about some of these different forms of birth control or emergency contraception that, you know, a lot of anti-abortion politicians have equated as early abortions and such. So, you know, it just opens the door for there to be so much greater risk. And it's just, some of it is just truly unthinkable. Yeah.

Jennie: Yeah. I really worry about all of that. Right? Like, just with the overturning of Roe, like, is it enough that right wing politicians claim that an IUD is an abortifacient, right? Is that enough for them to, like…go after it? Or do they have to go after Griswold as well? Like…

Kylie: Yeah. And I mean, you know, obviously I don't have all the answers, but what I do know is that, like, you know, when you overturn Roe v. Wade, that just opens the doors for so many things. And, you know, I think that I've talked to some policy experts at Guttmacher. And I think that a consensus, especially around this issue of IVF is, you know, one key issue is so many of these abortion bands are just so ambiguous, and that ambiguity and that lack of clarity… it just, again, it just opens the doors for all of these extremely horrible outcomes on top of abortion bans, and so, you know, it really is ambiguity that is deeply concerning.

Jennie: Okay. So, I think we already touched on, like, the last question, but it's good to have it all in one place so people can find it. So, what actions can people take right now? I'm sure a lot of people are scared and angry and frustrated, so what can they do?

Kylie: Yeah. I think, you know, top of mind, of course, is giving what you can to abortion funds and sharing, you know, sharing what they do, and, um, encouraging others in your life to give what they can and share their work as well. And the same goes for, again, like the Repro Legal Defense Fund and National Advocates for Pregnant Women to protect people who may be investigated and criminally punished for their pregnancy outcomes, so I think that, that, you know, knowing who to give your donations to, like those groups, independent providers with the Abortion Care Network, all of that is going to be so vital. And I think, you know, it's, again, in addition to, in addition to donations, it's just going to be so important to educate ourselves about self-managed abortion with abortion pills, and, you know, get that information to as many people as possible because, you know, the reality is that even when abortion is banned or when we reverse Roe v. Wade, that is not gonna stop abortion from happening. And that also doesn't stop the fact that, because of abortion pills, we have this very safe, medically safe option for people to, you know, continue to manage their pregnancies and such, and so, you know, that education and that awareness is going to be huge. So, I would say, you know, spreading that information and getting that as far and wide as possible and, you know, encouraging people to, as opposed to maybe sharing posts then include photos of like a coat hanger or warnings about how unsafe abortion will kill people, you know, I think that what we can do instead to help that not happen is to share this information about abortion pills as this highly safe option. And, you know, there are so many resources, like Plan C Pills and Reproaction, who are sharing all of this information about, you know, how to use these pills, and how to safely access them, so that is going to be huge. And, you know, yeah. I think really also just…I think, in addition to that, really understanding and pushing loved ones, and others around you, and people you work with to understand that, you know, this issue of abortion rights, like, it affects all of us, whether you, you know, you have had the privilege of not having to think about that as much as maybe you should have, like it definitely does, and, you know, I, I think an issue that I also report on and I’m deeply passionate is this issue of sexual violence and gender-based violence. And, you know, I've really come to understand abortion bans as basically state-sanctioned gender-based violence, where you're forcing someone to remain pregnant without their consent. You're forcing someone to give birth. And also, as you mentioned with “The Turnaway Study,” we know that that makes people more vulnerable to abuse and violence. We know that homicide is, like, I believe the top reason for pregnant people…for the deaths of pregnant people. And so, you know, I think that that's just one example of how, like, let's say, if you work in an advocacy space around sexual violence, this is absolutely your issue, and there's just…in all spaces, really abortion rights absolutely intersect with your issue in your workplace. You know, is your health insurance plan covering abortion care and, you know, the possible need to travel out of state for that? I mean, there's just so many different realms that this issue affects and that we all need to educate ourselves and each other about. And, you know, I think really just push for better, and push for, you know, push for acknowledgement of that, push for more resources and yeah.

Jennie: Well, Kylie, it was so much fun talking to you about such a horrible day.

Kylie: Yes.

Jennie: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here.

Kylie: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me and for, you know, all of the incredibly important work that you're doing.

Jennie: And we'll definitely make share to the link to the wrote this morning, and maybe some others as well if you have others you would like to include in our show notes.

Kylie: Oh, wonderful. I so appreciate that.

Jennie: Okay y'all, I hope you enjoyed my interview with Kylie. Like I said, I really enjoy her coverage at Jezebel. Make sure you follow her and check her out. She writes on a lot of amazing topics. We'll have links to some of her stuff in her show notes as well. There will be a regularly scheduled episode coming out tomorrow, so check that out. We recorded it before the decision, so we don't talk about what happened, but it's a lot of talk around what was expected and a number of other things, but it's also a very great conversation, so I hope you check it out as well. And as always, if you have any questions or topics you would like us to cover, feel free to shoot me an email at jennie@reprosfightback.com, and that's Jennie with an I-E, or you can reach out to us on social media @reprosfightback on Facebook and Twitter and @reprosFB on Instagram. Otherwise, I'll see y'all tomorrow for our regularly scheduled episode. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at @reprosfightback and on Instagram at @reprosFB. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening!

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