Everyone Loves Someone Who Had an Abortion: Abortion Storytellers Part 2

“We believe that everyone who has abortions deserves unconditional love and support. We believe that people who have abortions deserve to be in every space where decisions are being made. To borrow from the disability justice movement, there should be nothing about us without us. We are the leaders we’ve been waiting for.” -We Testify.

 For this incredibly special part two of our storytellers podcast series, tune in to hear the abortion stories of Kelsea McLain, Jack Qu’emi, and Veronika—abortion storytellers from We Testify.

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Passing the Women’s Health Protection Act Would Be Magical

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I hope you enjoyed last week's episode, talking with abortion storytellers. I'm so excited that we're gonna be doing it again this week. And like our last episode, I really just wanna focus on the storytellers and not do a big introduction like we normally do, but there are a couple things we do need to talk about before we turn to the storytellers. And it's only because they're timely. So if you're listening to this, when it comes out next week, the Senate is gonna be voting on the Women's Health Protection Act. It's a federal bill that would protect the right to access abortion against restrictions and bans in the states. And it would ensure that people everywhere have the ability to access basic healthcare, access abortion everywhere they live. If you wanna learn more about WHPA and why it would be magical to pass WHPA. We did an episode last year, talking to Jackie Blank at the Center for Reproductive rRights, talking about why passing the Women's Health Protection Act would be magical. So we'll make sure to include that link in our show notes. So you can go back and listen to it. If you have time between now and February 28th, please, please, please call your Senators and tell them that you want them to support WHPA. And then the other timely thing is the next day is important because, well, one it's my birthday, which is not the real important reason, but two, it will mark six months since Texas’s SB8 has gone into effect. So that means for six months, people in Texas have not been able to access their constitutional right to abortion. And so how I'm gonna celebrate my birthday is by donating to Texas abortion funds. So if you are able, this is just a great reminder that people in Texas are still really struggling to access care. And if you can, please donate to Texas abortion funds. So with that, let's turn to really the important part of this episode, which is the storytellers. I, again, I am just so grateful to all of them for taking time to share their stories with us. I had a wonderful time speaking to all of them. I just wanna give a huge thank you to We Testify and Renee Bracey Sherman for connecting me with all of their abortion storytellers who participated in these two episodes. So thank you to everybody. I really appreciate it. So with that, let's turn to the wonderful storytellers.

Jennie: Hi Kelsea. Thank you so much for being here today.

Kelsea: I'm happy to be here.

Jennie: So before we get started, do you wanna take a quick second and introduce yourself and include pronouns?

Kelsea: Yeah, so my name's Kelsea McLain. I use she and her pronouns and I'm based in Durham, North Carolina. I'm an abortion storyteller with We Testify. And in my day job, I work with the Yellowhammer Fund, which is an abortion fund based out of Alabama. I work remotely, but do a lot of work supporting abortion access in the south.

Jennie: Yeah, they're really great. I mean, so they're both really great. We Testify and Yellowhammer Fund, so that is pretty awesome.

Kelsea: Yeah.

Jennie: I am so excited to have you here today to tell your abortion story. So let's get started and just go with however you feel most comfortable telling it. So can you tell us your story?

Kelsea: Yeah, so my abortion story is really like a decade of a story. I have had three abortions and abortion is, you know, featured really prominently in my, just my reproductive journey. And when I talk about my abortions, I really like to talk about the situation I was in and the state of mind I was in during each abortion, because I think that really shaped the experiences and a thing that really played in heavily to my abortion experiences was abortion stigma. And I just, I feel like I have a lot to say about stigma and how it can really harm, not just emotionally, but physically, harm people when they're trying to access this care. So I always try to talk a little bit about that.

Jennie: Oh, that's so important. Thank you.

Kelsea: Yeah, sure. My first abortion happened, I guess it's like, I'm so bad at dates and times, and I know that there's some people that's very prominent and important, but it's never been very important to me, but I guess about 10 years ago, cause it was right after I graduated college and I graduated college in 2008, and so about 10 or 11 years ago, and I was fresh out of college. I had entered into that awful job market of the, you know, like that time period where literally no one could get a job. We were like kind of like that first wave of people that have been promised all these things with our expensive college educations.

Jennie: Yes. When I left grad school. Yeah.

Kelsea: Yeah. So I was here with the bucket load, uh, student loan debt and no one willing to give me a job. I was either overqualified or underqualified, a magical hellacious place to be. My, uh, partner and I were long distance at the time, we are now married ,and we were college sweethearts. I had…. actually, well, not really college sweethearts. We were college bar buddies who got together after we graduated college and realized that we kind of missed each other. I, um, had relocated out of state though. So we were long distance. I was living in Florida. He was living back home in Texas and I had returned. I had just lost my job actually I was fired and um, I was waiting tables. And so I, uh, decided to go visit him for a week. I came home and I started feeling sick a few weeks later. And I was on the verge of losing my apartment. I was on unemployment because I had really lost my job unjustly. So I called for unemployment and I was surviving on that incredibly limited income. I think it was like $400 a month or maybe $800 a month, but I know it was barely enough to cover my rent and then I had to pay all my other bills on it too. So, paying rent was no longer an option actually, as I was going through, I did a medication abortion for my, my a first abortion, actually all three of my abortions were medication, but I remember I was going through the process of miscarriage as I was like boxing up things in my apartment and moving them out. Thankfully I, you know, had the privilege of having a soft place to land. I wasn't going to have to be living out of my car or hotels or trying to find, you know, some other housing situation for myself. I was a able to move in with my mom. It was a really rough situation to be in. And I, well now at this point in my life now I don't want to have kids, but I say that that first abortion was really, truly motivated by my financial situation. Um, I wasn't in a kind of financial situation where I could even sit with that pregnancy and figure out if children was something I wanted in my life or something I wanted with my partner at the time. I just knew that there was no way I could afford a child that having a baby would mean I would be completely dependent on my family when I was already dependent on my family. And I, I didn't want to be, I, I wanted to be independent and paying my own bills and living in my own place. And it was also going to really screw up my partner's life. He was finishing up paramedic school. He was really dependent on being able to have this long distance relationship and not have anything forcing him to relocate or move any sooner than he was ready to. And it would've been probably detrimental to our relationship. I don't think I would be married to this man now if we had had children together during that stressful time in our lives, but I, uh, it was my whole work and life's work was really transformed by that abortion. I, you know, first there weren't a lot of protestors at the clinic, but there was one. And I just remember it me off it incensed me and filled me with rage that this old man with a sign could just be standing out there wasting his time when there was, you know, shit that needed to be done in the city, concerned about me and my life and my choices when he knew nothing about me. And as I sat in the clinic and made eye contact with the other patients in that facility, I got mad for them because I knew I was confident in my choices I thankfully did not have of like a faith that made me feel bad about myself or a family that wouldn't support me. And I was there with my mom. She was holding my hand and there were people sitting in that waiting room alone and they had to come and face that ugly man outside by themselves.

Kelsea: And that really bummed me out. And then just affording the abortion was, was such a burden. I absolutely struggled to, um, get the funds together. I had to have my boyfriend send me money instead of coming to be with me, which is really what I emotionally needed in that moment was my partner actually being there. And we had to scrimp and save. I had to use the last little bit of money I had on my credit card and ultimately an abortion fund stepped in to help me cover the rest of the balance. I probably had to delay my care two to three weeks because of the, the lack of funds. And it was really torturous to be pregnant that entire time when I didn't wanna be. And when I knew that this pregnancy was not going to continue, it just felt like torture. That's, that's the best way to describe it. I had lots of really stern conversations with my body where I just was trying to will it to miscarry. Well, I was trying to will something to happen, I felt like my body was betraying me in a way. I just didn't feel like myself. But thankfully with the help of the abortion fund, my partner sending me that money, I was able to get the medication and do the medication abortion. And it was a pretty big non-event, you know, it was painful. It sucked. I went through all the side effects. That was no fun, but also I was pregnant. I knew that there's no way to get outta pregnancy without there being a little bit of pain and discomfort. That's just the virtue of having a uterus. Right? And it was fine. I felt fine afterwards. I didn't have these regrets. I didn't have these dreams where I was plagued by a baby asking me why I had, you know, gotten rid of it, all the things, you know, I had seen, you know, I was active on Twitter and talked a little bit about abortion on Twitter and the things that people would say to me on Twitter, just for being pro-choice and, you know, say “that happened to their friend or that girl that they knew that had an abortion and then regretted it.” None of that happened to me. I was, I was very content with my decision. After that, I ended up reaching out to my clinic, asking them if they had any jobs or needed volunteers. They diverted me to a clinic down the road. It was actually so, such a privilege and a unique thing in the south. My city not only had one abortion clinic, it had three. And for some reason they were all in the same row. I, I called it abortion row in my head. It just cracked me up. But yeah, just a block away. There was another facility that ultimately, I kind of wish I would've visited. They had like a, a more like cozy, warm, inviting, you know, my doctor's office was very clinical, and this place they really practice like abortion care where it's like soft colors and you know, all female staff that really cares about you and, you know, checks in with you and stuff. But, you know, I was thrilled to find them. I started volunteering with them and clinic escorting. I'd never done it before. I just kind of was like, let me just figure this out and see what this is about. They had protestors there and then ultimately they gave me a job and I, uh, relocated here in North Carolina to work for one of their sister facilities in Raleigh. And my partner eventually moved here. We moved in together. We started our lives together with a dog and my cat from college and things were really great and sweet. And then I joined We Testify and got involved with abortion funds and was just doing all this really cool work. And I was actually coming home from my first We Testify retreat, um, met all the other storytellers in our cohort. And I, you know, had been drinking kind of heavily as, you know, what we were doing at the retreat with people who like to imbibe, we were sitting around a campfire after a day of really heavy processing and abortion storytelling and work and, you know, having some drinks. And I just assumed I had maybe inbibed too much. I'm not a big drinker to begin with and I get hung over real easy. But I remember on our trip, we were in Northern California and to get, um, from the retreat center to the airport, we had to go down this twisty road and I was sick. I was just sick. I was like, I know I normally have motion sickness, but there's something extra going on here. I was sick, the entire plane flight, I got home. And then a few days later I just looked at my husband. Oh! And we were recently engaged. That's… that's the other thing I always say it was that that engagement sex was a little, a little too powerful. Cause I, it was definitely the night of the engagement that I got pregnant. Um, just looking at the timing and it was just, it was such a bizarre and surreal different experience. Cause I didn't have, have any of the like stigma, shame, and anxiety that I had the first time, you know, I'd been through this already. I now worked in the movement. I had, you know, sat with hundreds of people having abortions and held their hands. I was so intimately aware of abortion and what it means for people. And now at this point in my life, my husband and I really had solid conversations and we decided we were to child free. Neither of us wanted to have kids.

Kelsea: So I just remember I got home and I said, I think I might be pregnant. And I think I need to take a pregnancy test. And he was like, oh, oh shit. And I said, yeah, but it's cool. You know, we're, we're gonna do the same thing we did before. And um, if that's the case… and I brought a pregnancy test home from work, peed on it in the bathroom and just shouted to him, he was upstairs on his computer. “Hey, I think I'm pregnant again, have to have another abortion.” And he was like, “okay, do you need anything?” And I was like, no, I'm, I'm actually good. It was simple. I just went through my employer. Um, I called my boss and was like, “Hey, how do I get an abortion from you?” And so it was, it was no big deal. But one thing that really always sticks with me is that I was now on this job. I was salaried. I had health insurance. I had benefits. I worked for an abortion clinic. My health insurance wouldn't cover my abortion.

Jennie: Wild!

Kelsea: Yeah. So, and that's a conversation I've had in the state with other people that work for reproductive rights orgs is a frustration for us that we exist in this climate and world where we can actually work providing access to the care, but we can't even give like our own employees and our coworkers the same access that we envision everyone deserves. Right? So just, you know, a moment where, you know, all of my abortion experiences really kind of highlight just all of the barriers and burdens that people even with a lot of privilege have to go through to access this care, but it was no big deal. I, I got the medications. I was very early in the pregnancy because I'm, you know, I was on it and I didn't have to like wait and struggle and fundraise. I was in a position where I could afford my care. I do remember being pretty frustrated that I had to do the 72 hour waiting period that the state mandates-- working for an abortion care provider, I sat in the same room as the nurse when she would do the state mandated counseling on the phone with all of our patients to start that 72 hour clock. And I, I could recite that counseling verbatim, but despite that, despite you know, me working in abortion care and you know, I clearly I know more than anybody about this. I still by the state was required to wait three days after completing that first you know, superficial step to access my care. And I, I just remember just waiting those three days and being just like angrier and angrier and angrier and knowing like, I already knew this, I knew I was prepared for this and I'm early. Like, it's no big deal to wait. You know, I'm not someone who's 19 weeks and facing a 20-week cutoff in my state. And I called the clinic at 19 weeks and six days and they're like, well, you gotta wait three days. So I knew it wasn't that bad for me, but it was still just so insulting. So, you know, like the government was just hold handholding. I think during that time period, it’s just unnecessary right?

Jennie: Unnecessary.

Kelsea: I feel like I called and left some voicemails with a few of the Republicans in the general assembly and was like, “Hey, just so you know, I'm having an abortion and you wanted to know about it and forced me to wait three days. So now you have a voicemail on your phone about it” Didn't change anything, made me feel better. And one cool thing about that experience though, was I now had this family of people who had had abortions who knew how to support people, having abortions. And I got to just toy with this idea of having this like radical acceptance experience. Like it wasn't just like the people you normally expect to have your back, your family. It was like all these friends, people, I hadn't even known that long and had a Facebook group I posted in it. “This is weird. I don't know how to start this, but Hey, I'm having an abortion. And, you know, I just wanted to let my, my friends know.” And in a few days after I posted that I got this beautiful care package in the mail from We Testify by someone who I was very close with was also in, We Testify. And she let them know like all my favorite things. So it was filled with all my favorite things. And it just, you know, I remember that was the thing that made me cry the hardest through the whole of it.

Jennie: It's gonna make me cry. Just like hearing, like the difference of just like how supported you were and how everybody you should be so supportive.

Kelsea: Like to really send that point home. And this will, I'm probably just gonna start crying, but it's fine. Crying is fine. I'm in therapy now. And they're like, yeah, crying’s fine. Um, but the, the abortion didn't hurt. It was so simple and so easy. Um, to the point that I was worried, it didn't work and it worked just fine. I was no longer pregnant. And so I just had this reality of, you know, yeah, probably there were things different about that first pregnancy. It was further along you, of course you have more tissue to pass. Things are bigger, it's gonna be more painful, but is the pain… like I know that emotional pain can be physical. And I know that when, you know, my father passed when I was 17 and I remember the physical pain, the manifestations of like, I developed this all over rash on my body and the wake of it and my grief and my stress. And I know that all manifests in the physical and just knowing that like, people are going through unnecessary pain potentially because they feel shame because they don't have support. It's heartbreaking. Like no one should have to physically feel pain. And, and we do. It's a, it's just a nature of being alive, but anything we can do to make it better and pain is the thing that people fear the most with the abortion procedure. You know, when I was working in the clinic and counseling people, that was always just their biggest anxiety and fear is how bad it would hurt. And a lot of times I'd hear this, like the tone and I'd get it because I felt like that with my first abortion, is that it's gonna hurt really bad because I deserve for it to hurt really bad because I'm making a bad choice. And it's it. It's just heartbreaking because I, I now know what it, it can be like to have an abortion when you don't have to deal with that burden and that shame. So that's something I'm like I'm real big on is I, I want everyone to have the dream abortion, which is, you know, my second abortion where you were just able to access that care and have a community of love that surrounds you and have a partner that supports you and not have to stress about how you're even going to get the abortion. It just happens. It just, when you're ready for it to happen, it happens. So that, that was, that was my abortion.

Kelsea: My husband and I in had a nice little engagement and we got married in 2016, then right before the pandemic started, I guess this was February of, or maybe, maybe not right before the pandemic. I, I guess it wasn't right before the pandemic, everything's just blurred together. But, um, in February of 2019, I, my birth control did not work again. This third time was really kind of devastating. You know, I'd processed through the abortion stigma, but I had never confronted the idea of multiple abortion stigma and like two abortions, hey, it happens, but three abortions now I was filled with this.... Like, I know it's like, like it's no, it's no different. Like, it's no different. I know I don't wanna have kids. Like, but it feels different. It feels like I should be harder on myself. I feel like I let myself down. I, I just, I don't know why I can't get over this hurdle of like…

Jennie: Well, like that shame spiral, then you get in and it just like keeps going in your head.

Kelsea: Right. And I remember I did have this brief moment with my second abortion and I was no longer working for the abortion care provider. I was now working Yellowhammer Fund who also just graciously was like, “if you have to pay for your abortion, we got it. Like, you know, we believe no one should have to pay for an abortion. That includes our employees” and Yellowhammer fund is not able to offer me coverage for abortion in my healthcare plan. Because yet, again, even though it's private insurance, there's all these barriers, but it was just, it was a lot. And I remember after my second abortion, my old boss at the clinic, she made this little kind of sly comment to me like, “well, don't let the staff know you're doing this.” Like, and I, I don't know what it was about, but it just made me feel a little bit, like she kind of had an idea that, you know, I was being a little bit reckless with using abortion, you know, like having too many abortions. And if the staff finds out that you can just easily have an abortion, then everybody's gonna do it, which is absurd. You know, no one's going to get pregnant just because abortion is easy to access. Right? But I think that stuck with me a little bit. I think that having someone in the movement that, you know, I trusted and used to work for showing me a little bit of shame and stigma with two abortions, I was like, oh, what are people when I think about three? Like. Yeah.

Jennie: Somehow that just like hurts worse.

Kelsea: Some of the worst stigma I've gotten has been friendly fire.

Jennie: Yeah.

Kelsea: I think there's a lot of people that really struggle. Like they wanna be pro-choice because they know people deserve access to abortion and deep down, they know if something terrible ever happens to them, they wanna be able to access the, the care without, without stigma, without shame, without barriers. But they also just can't let go of their bullshit that like we should, like every pregnancy should be planned in unplanned pregnancy is inherently the evil, bad, irresponsible thing. And I think that's like really the root of it, cuz like how do we teach, treat, you know, women that how, you know, bring children into the world that were unplanned? How do we treat women with lots of children? You know, there's all this like shame and stigma and that people have to face surrounding reproduction and children. And then I like, you know, I, I went through the abortion process and it was not only emotionally difficult just processing through that like multiple abortion stigma. It was actually a really physically difficult abortion because I was just so not wanting, you know, I work in this movement. I know all the doctors, I know all the people that work in all the clinics locally, I wanted privacy. So I decided to self-manage and I, I say that was a position of privilege, um, to choose to self-manage because I had the choice, I could have gone to a clinic and just swallowed my feelings, but I wanted to do the thing that would make me feel most comfortable and safe. And like I had the most privacy and I'm not someone who can have a lot of privacy when they're having an abortion. Cause everybody knows who I am. And I recognize that we're rapidly approaching a reality where it's not going to be a privilege to self-manage it's going to be what people are forced to do. So it was such a complicated world to exist in and this weird spot where everything kind of came together and I realized why self-managing really makes a lot of sense and why it needs to be one of those expanded options that everybody has access to, even in a world where abortion is legal and you can go to a clinic because just for some people going to a clinic doesn't work out time wise or emotional wise, or, you know, maybe they're prominent, well known in their community. And they're worried about being spotted. I mean, there's all these things and self-managing, I, um, use misoprostol only, um, I wasn't able to get my hands on the full regimen, and it didn't work and it's really painful and just sucks to go through the, the sickness you get with misoprostol, the side effects of using it over and over and over again. And when you're using misoprostol only you have to take high doses of it. So it wasn't working for me. I eventually just swallowed my pride. I went to the clinic. I was like, do you think I should do a surgical? Do you think I should try like the pill, but like legit this time and the nurse who I'm friends with was like, “just do the pill again. I, I really think it's just that, that like your body likes that your body, you know, like is, this is how we into pregnancy is with this medicine and not with this other one.” So I did the medication abortion, it went, it worked fine. It was a lot more painful than the first one. But I also recognized, like I put my body through a lot. I emotionally had gone through a lot going, you know, having an abortion in a, not working is just devastating.

Jennie: Yeah.

Kelsea: And I just really was like anxious about having to do that surgical procedure and like have a doctor who I've hugged and high fived and worked in the movement, like in between my legs. It just was like a very panicky feeling, I didn't like it. So I am really thankful that I, I wasn't forced to do the surgical procedure and that I still had the privilege of choice and options, but that last abortion was like, it was rough, but it did lead to a wonderful transformation in our reproductive lives. And my husband not wanting to put me through any further hell and feeling already bad that I'd had these two unplanned pregnancies, um, that he was directly responsible for. He got a vasectomy. And um, now we are the, uh, vasectomy advocatess to me to our young and child free community of friends. He's always talking the big talk, um, talking to, you know, a friend who's had multiple children and she's done having kids, her husband too. So it's just, we're still on this reproductive journey. I think ours is over and we're really thankful for that. And I took a while for me wanna to wanna just publicly say I've had three abortions, but now it's like, I've really leaned into it. I started, like, I talked with my friend who has multiple children. She just had her fourth baby. And she's like, “well, hell, I've been pregnant more times than you have. So like, who's the irresponsible one?” And I was like, that's a great point. Like, you know, that's like a really great point. I never considered like, just cuz your kids are here, and my, you know, I do not have children and it doesn't mean one of us, you know, you've been pregnant way more than me, you know? Like you've definitely been pregnant way more than me. So pregnancy just happens to people and there's just, there's ways to prevent it. There's ways to control it. There's way to space them out. But sometimes there's not, sometimes nature, just, nature has a way, man, our bodies, you know, and to back up, I guess it's just, I really hate that the advice and care that we can give to others is so different than the advice and care that we can give to ourselves. Like, like, you know…

Jennie: Oh god, yes [laughs]

Kelsea: Sitting with women and they'd be feeling bad about like their fourth or fifth abortion and me with no judgment or care in their world would just be holding their hand and they'd be like, “you know what all your body wants to do is make more of you. That's all your body wants to do and your body doesn't care what your brain wants. So don't feel bad about biology getting in the way of your like life dreams, right? Like biology does biology. It just goes, it doesn't, it gets us sick when it wants to get us sick. It, you know, takes us out when it wants to take us out. And it creates new life when it wants to create new life and you can't live your life just because your body decided it wanted something different for you than what your brain wanted.” And, and then not to just apply that to myself. It's hard but it it's real.

Jennie: Oh, I feel you so hard on that. Like so many things, like you would never put up with a friend saying about themselves or saying, and you're like, but in your own head, it's like, yeah, you don't listen to what you just said to them.

Kelsea: Right. So those are, I mean really. And then in a long and run my abortion stories. With my third abortion, Ialso had a little abortion party. It's something I'd always joked with my friends I wanted to do. And here was my opportunity. So my best girlfriends came over. We watched movies, they brought me, you know, each friend brought me a little care gift. I got socks and face masks and had my heating pad plugged in. And we just like plugged along and had a good time sent the husband upstairs, made him, you know, get-- living room was girl zone. So it was a, it was a nice, a nice little moment. And I know that there's been, there's been like some people that have talked about abortion parties or there were, uh, I always forget her name. Oh, recording artists that actually, oh, I can't remember her. Um, but she did a song and, um, it was called letter or “Voicemail for Jill.” And it's about a friend who calls her and she's, it always makes me cry thinking about this song, cuz it's just, everybody deserves this, but you know, she's just leaving this voicemail for a friend who's about to have an abortion. And you know, about how so often for are reproductive experiences people celebrate us, but abortion is not one of those things and that she was promising her friend that, you know, when she gets back home, she's gonna throw her an abortion shower because people deserve to be showered with love when they go through a reproductive experience. And I fully agree with that. And that always like just sticks with me that, you know, we don't get to be celebrated for going through these experiences. And I'm sure there will be people listening to this that’ll just be appalled at the idea of celebrating someone for having an abortion. But it's like such… it's, it's just one of those decisions that you make that, you know, it's a permanent decision, you know, it's a big deal or maybe it isn't a big deal, but just making that decision is a big deal. And we celebrate people when they go through these big life experiences and when they make big, important decisions for themselves and there just needs to be more of that, there needs to be more of celebrating abortion. You know, I, I see the way that abortion has liberated my life. I see, you know, how hard my, my friends who are parents' lives are, and that they've made very deliberate, just choices to bring children into the world and be parents. And I just, you know, I, I hate that. It's just considered against like your nature or against what's right. To be a person that decides maybe that's not for me. And maybe I'm not wanting to take that on in my life. And yeah. I feel like I'm just rambling, but…

Jennie: No, it's all been perfect. No, it's all been great. Thank you so much for sharing it. I really loved that you took some time to talk about stigma. Cause I think that is such a huge issue around abortion and no, it was, it was wonderful. So again, thank you so much for sharing.

Kelsea: Of course. Happy to and thank you for doing this podcast.

Jennie: Hi Jack. Thank you so much for being here today.

Jack: Thank you for having me.

Jennie: So I am so happy that you are here today to share your abortion story. Would you like to introduce yourself and share your story?

Jack: Yeah. My name is Jack Qu’emi. My pronouns are they/them. Uh, I'm a non-binary person living out on the west coast in LA, but my abortion happened like a decade ago between 19 and 20. It was nice little birthday gift for me [lauhgs]. Basically what happened was I'm like a freshman in college, had a part-time job, full-time in school. I had a partner, the same partner since I was about 16, my high school sweetheart. And in typical fashion, when you're a sexually active 19 year old, you know, you use condoms, but then sometimes they break and then you're aware of Plan B and you go ahead and you grab that, but then it doesn't work for whatever reason, it doesn’t work. I'm still not sure, maybe I’m just super fertile [laughs].

Jennie: These things happen.

Jack: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I don't, there wasn't anything obvious that would make me think that like give me a reason as to why Plan B didn't have any effect for me, but it didn't. So over that, over that month, my birthday happens and I realized I still haven't had a period, which I mean, we like not having a period, but not for that reason. And I got, I go, I go to the pharmacy and I pick up, it's like a three pack of pregnancy tests and, so you're supposed to pee on it in the wait, like a minute, two minutes or something like that before you look at the result and the direction are very clear about, you know, wait the full two minutes, don't get crazy. Don't, don't try to see things or there aren't things, but I swear, my body just got near it. And like the moment that it felt my body heat, that thing was like you’re pregnant-- to the point where I thought that it was broken. I remember my friend, we're still friends, actually, we're gonna be roommates, uh, in a couple weeks. And my friend during undergrad, I was like, “Hey, listen, there's a third one. I'm convinced this thing is freaking broken. Can you pee on this?” Because that friend hadn't been with anybody who produced sperm in like years. So I'm like, okay, this, this will know, this will be definitive proof and there's the negative. So I'm like, okay, maybe I'm just so fertile and so put together that just my body being near this means as I'm pregnant. So I called a Planned Parenthood, the partner I had at the time… I mean, we're both like 19 at this point 20 at this point. And we're both absolutely just emotionally unintelligent little beings it's a, it's a concept at that age. And our relationship is very hot and cold and up and down as they sometimes are when you're growing up and I reach out to that partner and I tell him like, “Hey, I'm, I'm pretty sure I'm pregnant.” We call Planned Parenthood together, and I don't have a car. So this dude has got to take me, but we're not getting along so well. So that's an awkward drive in itself. I take the first appointment I can, like first thing the morning. I think it was like eight in the morning, super early. Cause the sooner better. He drives me. He takes me. I'm going Planned Parenthood for the first time. This was in Orlando, Florida, mind you. So this is like there's two Planned Parenthood clinics. One at least then, I don’t know if there are more now, there's one on the east side, one on the west side and only the west side one did abortions. Cause the one on the east was really close to campus and that would be too convenient or someone, or maybe there was like a political reason for that. Who knows?... So I go there, there's like maybe two or three protestors outside and their signs are very much directed towards, you know, potential fathers saying “it’s your baby too.” But thankfully my ex, my now ex is just about as, pro-choice me and does not give a rat’s ass. We're good. Let's go inside. And as soon as we get inside, I am no longer as nervous because I am greeted by the biggest smile from the friendliest receptionists ever met in my whole life. And I had visited clinic since and still have not had such a pleasant receptionist, greet me. Maid in Manhattan was playing on the TVs in the lobby. And as someone who was Puerto Rican, you'd have to see another Puerto Rican. It must have been a good sign, right? I'm a little woooo for that. But thanks, JLo. You guided me.

Jennie: It's the little thing sometimes, right? Like just like the little thing you're like, this is clearly meant to be. Yes. Jack: Yeah. I just really needed comfort and familiarity. And sometimes the funniest things like things will make a process easier for you, and in this particular scenario I'm about to have an abortion and Maid in Manhattan is on tv. I'm like, because I was giving main character energy. And, you know, at the time I also identified as a non-binary person, they/them pronouns. And this was in 2011. There was, there was a bit of a lack of cultural competency in a lot of these spaces. There still is now, but you know, I also live in LA now. So when you fill out forms, there's a space for a preferred name. There's a space for pronouns. And that just wasn't the case in Florida in 2011, even at a Planned Parenthood. So that was not so fun to deal with. You know, everybody that was talking to me when I went back was very, very kind. But if I, I swear having listened to yourself, get misgendered over and over while you're just trying to access abortion care is the most…I'm already nervous. Now I'm pissed on top of it and I'm not, I'm not gonna have the energy. I'm not gonna do the emotional labor of having, you know, a little info session of, “Hey, this is what pronouns are. This is what my identity actually is.” This is a teeny, tiny bit more complicated for me than, you know, the people are probably aware of, but they don't know to ask those questions, but I'm not about tell them because I’m 20 years old, terrified. Right? And I remember when I got my abortion again, impeccable timing on my part, absolutely Florida, had just passed something into effect, instead of an ultrasound you had to have a trans-vaginal ultrasound. So for those of you that don't know, that means instead of the traditional, you see on Grey's Anatomy ultrasound from outside of your body, where they put the goo on your belly and they just check, they take a giant, a very unpleasant looking phallic object, put the jelly on that and put it inside you to make sure you're pregnant, because me peeing on a stick and having a then identified as lesbian friend Tiana pee on a stick and you know, not having a period for a month and a half. That that was not enough. Cause clearly I'm unaware of the fact that I'm pregnant, but whatever, don't like that they did ask, there was an option for folks that if they wanted to get a printout of the ultrasound and keep it, they absolutely could. And while I absolutely understand how that could be very cathartic for some folks, I am not one of those folks. And I said, fuck no, let's move on. Let's keep it rolling. That was weird enough. Didn't like that. In my particular case, I chose a medication abortion because I didn't want people face first in my crotch, the concept is weird to me. Unfortunately, the trans-vaginal ultrasound ended up getting like crotch action anyway, but you know, whatever.

Jennie: As little as you can, right. Let's do medication then.

Jack: I was trying so hard. Yeah. I was like, let me, let me curate my experience here. Right? There's one point where you can bring the person that you come in with you; there's like a little bit of a consult telling you how to use the medication, et cetera, et cetera. But my partner at the time, passed the out in the lobby, they just fell asleep. He just like slept through that whole thing. Like party! I love my support system. It's going so well! So I get my medication. I end up having to quit my part-time job because I don’t know if this is true for everyone. I've had, I've heard stories of other people having medication abortions, but I did not have a good time with that. It, it really was like an unpleasant experience for me. I took my medication. They give you, they give you anti nausea medication as well. Cause you're gonna start cramping. They, they give you ibuprofen. They gave me a, a prescription for something stronger if I needed it. And I wanna like, ten minutes of me taking, uh, I, the kind where you put it in your mouth and dissolves to, as opposed to putting it in, in your vagina, which, great loved that. But I immediately was nauseous. I immediately couldn't move. I immediately was like, I'm in bed and I was bedridden for at least a week just because I was so uncomfortable and I didn't really get my appetite… was severely just stunted. And I didn't really go back to normal for about two months. Cause I was still spotting. After two weeks, I go back for my, just like a follow up just to make sure you're good. We have another trans-vaginal ultrasound, you know, to make sure that all the bleeding did what it was supposed to do.

Jennie: As much as you wanted one!

Jack: I know I was just giving like a very, my vagina's debut was very, you know, fantastic. Everything's good. Everything's chill again. I'm still not like I can't even eat, which is such a bummer. Cause I'm a Taurus and my whole life revolves around when I'm gonna eat and the experience of it. And then the partner I had at the time, kind of just dipped right after that we paid, I think we, we split it. It was like 500 bucks. I miss my money every day. But the concept of having an abortion, you know, besides the initial nervousness and fear just cause I, I still don't like medical settings. It's weird and gross and I don't wanna get misgendered. I, I just kinda moved on from it, kinda it in a box in the back, my head. And didn't talk about it for about a year, I think, you know, that one friend that I had pee on a pregnancy is the one friend that knew, and I think one other knew, but I just didn't talk about it. Eventually I get involved with it was then it was called [inaudible. Voices For Planned Parenthood. It was a student group on campus and there's an abortion speak out and I chose to be a part of that. And just cause I don't know, I just kinda moved on. It was just something that didn't, I just wanted, it was, it wasn't really a, I didn't want it to be a defining moment in my life. It was just something that was in the way of me getting to the other things that I wanted. Like I wanted to finish school and I wanted to, you know, just not be pregnant. Cause pregnancy for me is very scary and dysphoric and it's like a big ick for me and I knew then, and I know now that I don't children and even actually tried to it sterilized, but they told me that they wouldn't sterilize me because I guess, you know, when you consent to those that's when the government was like… I guess it’s cause I was under 30 but I’m turning 31 this year so guess what baby it’s happening!My mind still has not changed. What's that like? So I do that first abortion speak out. It was chill. It was fine. I get a little bit involved with Planned Parenthood. You know, it's one thing to be pro-choice but then to actually need to access abortion and you really become a lot more radicalized after that. And I just, I'm like, I'm full pro-abortion at this point, and then… I'm friends with Renee, my, my Beyonce queen of abortions, Beyonce of abortions, uh, on Twitter. And she asked me to be a part of a, of a digital abortion speakout.... And we've been inseparable since. When she started doing, We Testify as a program through NNAF, she asked me to be part of her first cohort and I was like, absolutely, yes, whatever you want. Let's go. We go to, um, a retreat and stuff and it was amazing. And I never been in such a supportive space. I was used to going to, you know, reproductive justice spaces and like abortion speak outs where they're very much talking about how they wanna use your story as you know, uh, a talking point for why we need abortion access, right? We need reproductive rights. But then they kind of dispose of you. They use your emotional labor, they don't compensate you. They expect you to out a way to get to and from those things, and there's no support actor and my face and my name are, you know, that that's very visible when I'm doing this abortion speaker. Cause it's me talking about my abortion and the amount of harassment that people like me trying to talk about their abortion story get not just online, but also in person is immense and to not get support from some pretty big organizations after that is incredibly frustrating. So of course, when I become a part of We Tesitfy, I'm around a not white-centric space at the, you know, during the first cohort, I was the first, but since then there have been more trans people. I now know other trans folks that have had access or have had abortions and needed abortion access for varying reasons. I have met people that don't want children. I've met people that, you know, had a child, had an abortion, had another child after that. And like it's been such a wonderful and affirming space and they make sure that you're taking care of not just emotionally, but financially, which is something that me at 20 couldn't have imagined. So clearly Renee, not just Beyonce of abortion, the Beyonce of my heart, and she hasn't able to get rid of me since, she's stuck with me forever. And she will be stuck with forever and happy to keep it that way.

Jennie: Yeah. She does such a great job putting together such a diverse group of storytellers. Like she arranged everybody for these two episodes and it has been such a wonderful range of experiences that I have telling stories. And I'm so glad it’s showing the reality of what abortion access looks like and who's accessing it and just… amazing. And I'm just so grateful that we're able to share all of y'all's stories so that people understand what abortion access in the America looks like.

Jack: Absolutely shout out to Renee. And I don't think until joining, We Testify that I really, you know, my reasoning for having abortion whenever I did a speak out or I talked about it prior to joining We Testify it was, I think it was really difficult for people to kinda wrap their heads around the fact that my one reasoning for having one is, cause I just didn't wanna be pregnant. And that was it. There really wasn't, you know, a story or, you know, whatever, typical trauma based conversations that were popular at the time or that were normally heard. It just, I just didn't feel like being pregnant. I just don't want to be. And I think being in a space with Renee really made me feel like that was okay. That's an absolutely valid response. Sorry. It's not so juicy for reporters, but…

Jennie: Mean, your reason is your reason and it's nobody's business, but also it's completely valid.

Jack: It's like pregnancy icky for me. No want, thank you.

Jennie: Right. And that's enough. I, yeah, I, it, when you start getting into the like, oh, well this is a good abortion or a bad abortion. No like unacceptable.

Jack: Like don't you regret anything? I regret that it was so expenisve. Like $250 dollars for a college student c’mon folks, that is not ok. Like if anybody wishes to reimburse me for my abortion 10 years ago, please submit, I do have cash app, paypal.

Jennie: Yeah. I mean, that's definitely, I mean, there are stories. I mean, stories, everybody runs the gamut, right. So I'm sure there are people who have some other regrets, but like everybody I've talked to is like, no, like the thing I look back on and like gave me problems was either like the shame or stigma I faced from various obstacles that either the state threw up or like having to deal with protestors or whatever. And like those things are not okay either.

Jack: No, not at all. I completely agree. Jennie: Well, Jack, thank you so much for sharing your story.

Jack: Thank you. I love telling my funny little doodle story putzing around at 20, trying to figure out how to get an abortion.

Jennie: Yeah, I, that was another great story we had was like somebody who had to navigate judicial bypass and I'm just like the lengths people have to go to be able to access abortion care is unreal. Whether it's travel or navigating the judicial system or navigating the network of various restrictions that have been put in place like this is basic healthcare, it should be so much easier to access and everybody should be able to be supported.

Jack: Absolutely. And I had insurance at the time too, but I'm a military brat. Tricare does not abortion. No one knows that.

Jennie: Well, Jack, thank you.

Veronika: So my name is Veronika I use she/her pronouns and I'm in San Antonio, Texas and I had two abortions. My first abortion, I had it when I was a minor and there were like a whole bunch of issues that came along with that because it wasn't just as, as you know, going into the procedure and getting it there was, there's a law in Texas stating that, you know, minors have to be above or you have to be about 18 to have an abortion without parental consent saying that minors need parental consent in order to get an abortion. So with the time that I found out that I was pregnant, I was about 17. I remember like very vividly. I had just graduated from high school and I had already been accepted into this new university, which is the one I’m at right now. And I found out I was pregnant like a couple weeks before I had to leave cities to go, you know, to the city I am now. And I was like, I, I realized that I, I might have been pregnant. Like I was, you know, I was, I kept like track my period and I was very like regular person. So then I realized that I was like 10 days from like, like pretty much a week late. So that kinda got me really scared. And so I just decided to, you know, take a pregnancy test. And I was with my partner at the time, we were taking the test. And I just remember like seeing the pregnant on there, I just like started like crying like uncontrollably because I knew what would have to happen. Like if I did have a child, I knew one that my, my mom would be mad cause my mom was very strict. And I also knew that like I was just about to start this like new journey, new chapter in my life, going to school, something I'd been really wanting to do. And you know, I, I wanted to go to be an engineer. And so I knew that that was gonna be the first thing I had to give up because at the time I was like a, a, you know, teenager with no, you know, no job, no money saved, my partner was in the same boat. So, you know, in that like couple minutes that I was crying, I decided that, you know, I wanted an abortion and it was this instinctual thought. And like, I, I remember thinking about it and like, not even thinking well like “how do I get an abortion?” It was just like “I need to get an abortion.” So I remember at the time my partner looking up information because I remember thinking at the time, like, is, is abortion even like legal? I, I didn't know. And I didn't know pretty much any information about that. So yeah, my partner was like looking up how to get an abortion. And the first like roadblock, I guess, was him finding out that, you know, you have to over 18 to have abortion without parental consent.And when I heard that was like, this is like, this is like, then I can't do it because I'm, I cannot tell my mom that I'm pregnant and I cannot tell her that I need an abortion because I was like, I was just fearful of like, well, what if she gets really angry? And what if she is like, she kicks me out and, you know, there’s so many things that could have happened if I told her. So, and then I, I knew, I also couldn't tell my dad because my dad was really religious. And at this time he was living in a different state. And so it was just like, it wasn't an option. And so when we found out that we had to get parental consent and that's when we found Jane’s Due Process and then basically Jane’s Due Process helps minors specifically get abortions without parental consent through a process called the judicial bypass. And so, so I didn't really hear all of this. Like the, the background, like investigating, I just kinda was handed like the phone. And he was just like, here, like they have this like text line that you can text. And that was just so great because I knew I was like in no position to be like talking to somebody on the phone. Like, and so I was just like, you know, texting them, like scared, basically giving them all my information because I, I was just desperate. And so once I, you know, texted the hotline, they gave me like a list of things that I needed to do. And it was just kind of things that needed to be done, like as soon as possible to get this abortion as soon as possible, especially cuz I was on a kind of a timeline, cause I was supposed to leave like a two, three weeks after, you know, this whole thing happened.

Veronika: So the first item on the list was to go to the ultrasound, go get an ultrasound. They told me like it was to confirm your pregnancy, but at the same time they need to, the judge needs to know, needs to be aware of like exactly how far along you are. Just so for like reasons like, OK, what kinda like abortion do you wanna have? And luckily when I went, I was only like about five, six weeks. And so I went to the ultrasound, then I finally got like in contact with my case manager and also by the way they paid for the ultrasound, which is really great. Cause I had literally no money at the time. And so it was just really nice, you know, getting that $100 cause I did not have that money. Um, and so after, you know, getting ultrasound, that's when they connected me with my case manager and basically case managers, a person that helps guide you through the process, making sure you get your appointments and make sure you have transportation. And luckily I had the support of like my, my partner's mom and so she was one that like drove us around and which is, which is really helpful. And I remember at the time having to be very like secretive and like, you know, having to lie about like where I was going. So I was like, oh, I’m going to [inaudible] but in reality, I was like getting my ultrasound. So after I got in contact with my case manager, she directed me, she like set up an attorney for me. She like kinda in contact with an attorney because I needed to meet with my attorney kinda just to prepare what, what I would have to do when I go actually in front of the judge. And I probably should have mentioned this earlier. So judicial bypass, the way it works is that you have to, it's basically allowing you to get an abortion without having to be, without having parental consent. And so the way that this works is that you have to go like a lengthy process. You have to get the ultrasound, you have to get an attorney. And then finally you meet with a judge and basically beg them to give you an abortion, to let you have an abortion. And in reality, what they say like is that they wanna prove that you're mature and well informed about this decision, which, you know, to me, it sounded like, oh, I mean, that makes sense. Like minors are dumb. Like everyone, everyone thought that like everyone thinks that that minors are dumb. Um, but looking back, I think that was, that definitely was like one of the most mature decisions I ever did. And that's really bullshit is like not, not letting people have healthcare, especially minors. It's just really stupid.

Veronika: So yeah. Going back to the story, um, I met with my attorney and it was basically like to prep, meeting the judge. Cause you know, the judge is gonna like purposefully ask you very like invasive questions and like questions like, well, why are having sex? Like, why can't you you just raise baby? Like things like that that, you know, you wouldn't normally talk about with a stranger. But in this case it was different because you’re begging someone to let you have an abortion. So when I went with my attorney, she, she basically told me like what kinda questions I would ask, they would ask. And she prepped me for that. You know, that thing that they'll ask you and basic questions on purpose and the whole point is just to make you seem immature. And so she was saying that you need to be well prepared knowing like how the abortion works. You need to know, um, you just need to sound like mature. And so especially she was telling me to like emphasize that I'm in school or I'm going school. I'm already accepted like a big university. And it was kind like a big deal down there and where I was from, um, there's really only like one university and like a community college. And so I made sure to remember to emphasize that I was like going school cause I wanted to be a mechanical engineer. And so yeah, after meeting that attorney, it was really great because I felt prepared and I had like a list of possible questions they had. And so then the next step was to get to the courthouse. And when going to the courthouse, it was just a really scary experience. Cause I don't think I've had ever been to like that courthouse or a courthouse before. And so having to go there, I, I was doing something wrong because you know, you only go to a courthouse if you have like tickets or if you did something bad and you speak to a judge and I was just really scared. And so just going there, it was just like, like I was just a wreck. Like I was completely terrified because I knew that I was going to meet with this judge face to face. And actually when I first thought about like meeting the judge, I thought we were gonna be in like a normal Judge Judy setting where it's like a big courtroom and like the judge at the very like their stand or whatever, but it was completely different because when we got into the like room, it was basically a really small room, like, like smaller than a bedroom. And there were like couches and chairs and it was really intimidating. Like the judge was like right in front of, and just staring me. And like, you were like people in… like my attorney and then some other person, but yeah. So it had to be like very private. They couldn't know your name. They have to address you as Jane there's like this whole thing. But it was just scary because like, I didn't expect to be so close to this judge, like face to face and like actually talking to him and, you know, explaining, you know, like this whole situation. And so that's, that's when you know the question started like, well, why, why are you having sex? Like, why can't you involve your parents? and like explain the same thing. Like mom's strict. My dad doesn't live in the state and he's religious. And then he was asking me questions, like just making me feel dumb and immature and like making me feel that, you know, that it was my fault that I was irresponsible and, you know, immature. And that's just how it basically went. I just remember being like terrified the entire time and trying to like look strong and trying to like get him to approve this bypass. So basically after all the questions were done at the end, he decided to like make a little personal comment that kind of like, it got me scared. It got me thinking that he and going to approve my bypass. But in the end, you know, finally I got out, I was just, you know, ready to get outta that room. And later on I found out that I got the bypass approved, which I was just so relieved and thankful for because like, I, I knew that if, you know, you get denied, then, then there's a whole other process you have to go through…And so, yeah. Luckily I, you know, I got the bypass and the next step was just to get an abortion and, and it was just like, wow, like finally, I, I got the bypass now I can actually get the abortion.

Veronika: And I remember when I did get the abortion, like the day or the next day, I was already like on my way to San Antonio to start, you know, orientation to start school. So yeah, the whole, the whole thing was like really stressful, especially because I had to figure out transportation, I had to out like be secretive and like hide it from my mom and luckily I wasn't in school at the time because then it a million times harder. But, um, yeah. And then also like the last step, I guess, into getting the abortion was to pay for the abortion. And I like had like completely forgot about how much it would cost or I had no idea how much it would cost because I was just so focused on, you know, getting through the each step and making sure that I did well with the judge. And so my total, the abortion was like $600, which is like the average amount for an abortion or like when you're in the first six to 12 weeks, I guess, and the price was around $600 and I, I was just scared cause I was like, yeah, I don't have $600… then luckily, you know, Jane’s Due Process helped me connect with some funds, like Lilith Fund. And so I got in contact with them, but like, unfortunately I only had like a little taken off my bill. So there was still like outstanding bill, like, and then luckily my partner's family ended up paying for the abortion and I knew that it wasn't like something easy because $400, just like, it's not like something that like, laying around. And so I knew that that was very, um, I was just really grateful cause I'm very generous and I knew that that must have like, you know, set some things back. But, uh, I was just really grateful because if I didn't get that money, you know, I would've, I would've had to like postpone it and it would've, would've been more difficult cause I was already going to San Antonio and everything. So, so yeah, definitely the whole experience was just stressful and stressful, but I'm just grateful that I, I got it.

Jennie: I'm so glad you shared your story and thinking about like having to deal with the judicial bypass, like that is so much for a young person to have to navigate.

Veronika: Yeah. I remember. I, I, I remember like not having time to like really validate my feelings, like really processing what I was going through. Like I was being, you know, like very secretive I had to, you know, kind of just be to myself and, you know, with my partner, but it was this very serious situation I was trying to, you know, get through, you know, as a minor that had never been through anything like close to this. And then, you know, on top of that, finding transportation, finding like the funds and, and that was just like so stressful, but I really didn't have time to like, evaluate like logically like, oh, what about me? Like, I didn't have to, like, I couldn't think about, you know, the money. I couldn't think about the transportation. Like these things just had to like had to happen. And then like my feelings just kinda had to like get thrown out the window because I just couldn't concentrate that on that. I couldn't like, I couldn't like feel scared. I had to just, you know, push through it. And so I was just like very scary and I, I reflect a lot back on it and it was just like insane how like determined I was, but it was like, it was definitely like, I, I look back at it to this day and it was like the most mature decision I ever made because I like looked clearly at, at my future. And I, I saw that I, what I wanted and I knew that I, you know, getting abortion, I had to get there.

Jennie: Yeah. It just feels like it adds so much undue stress on you, right? Like that you had to go through a judicial bypass versus being able to just go get the abortion care, you know, you needed.

Veronika: Yeah. Because I mean, even now with the, the regular, the way it, you know, the regular way it takes to get an abortion, there's still like this, you know, the mandatory waiting period and you have to wait for the times that they have available. And especially, you know, only having one clinic down where I'm from it's difficult. And luckily, you know, I lived in the same city as that clinic, but yeah, it, it couldn't just be like a normal, like, okay, go to the abortion, you know, figure out the funds. It was just a, like a lot harder on top of that. Cause I had to go through this very lengthy, you know, two week process.

Jennie: Well, Veronika, thank you so much for sharing your story.

Veronika: Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Jennie: Okay. Everybody. I hope you enjoy these two episodes with abortion storytellers. I really, I had so much fun talking to them. It was, is just so powerful to hear their stories and their own voices. And I am gonna make sure that we do this more often. I know we do the annual episode in the fall where I talk to people telling their story of how they got started working in this field. I think that this is gonna be our spring annual episode to do abortion storytelling. It's really important. And I wanna make sure that those stories continue to be represented on our podcast. So I hope you enjoyed them as always.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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