Hannah Matthews on Her New Book, You or Someone You Love: Reflections from an Abortion Doula

As an abortion care worker and doula, Hannah Matthews has seen a plethora of abortion journeys and responses. And while statistically nearly everyone knows someone who has or will access an abortion in their lifetime, one-note narratives bolster assumptions and we are awash in a sea of anti-abortion stigma. Hannah Matthews, abortion clinic worker, community care worker, doula, and author, sits down to talk with us about her new book, You or Someone You Love: Reflections from an Abortion Doula, and how to better support those accessing abortion.

Feelings on abortion can be varied. Hannah offers up a guide to the emotional and physical realities of providing true and flexible support to people accessing abortion. The book offers real abortion stories, highlighting a genuinely diverse landscape of abortion care across gender, race, and class lines. In addition, we talk about maintaining hope in the seemingly constant fight for abortion rights.

Links from this episode

You or Someone You Love: Reflections from an Abortion Doula
Hannah Matthews on Twitter
Birthing Advocacy Doula Trainings
Cornerstone
All Options
Exhale
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to RePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. [music intro]

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Hey, RePROs! How are you doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, how are you feeling about this new weekly format? I am still really excited. I am really looking forward to bringing you twice as much content, talking to twice as many amazing guests, and finding more ways for you to get involved in the fight for reproductive freedom and our bodily autonomy. Like, I'm just really excited that we are getting to do this twice as much. I am still very much in that honeymoon phase, and I'm sure the thought of, like, all the more work it is will settle in at some point, but right now, I'm just really excited! Again, it's something that we have talked about wanting to do since- honestly, since we started the podcast, so I'm very excited that we're finally making it happen. So this week's episode, I'm really excited. We're gonna be talking about a book again, so it makes me want to talk about this week and why this week is so important. This week is Banned Books Week and it's just something I always make time personally to highlight, to raise on social and to personally mark by reading a banned book. It's- the last couple years it has become a fur of like so many books are being banned. So many good books are being banned. And it's really important to raise attention to that and why this, it cannot be allowed to happen. So, it just seems really important to talk about it here a little bit. I haven't figured out what I'm reading yet this year. I haven't looked at the list to think about what I wanna read as my banned book. So, if you have recommendations or something you read that is on the band book list that you really love, let me know and I will check it out. So, you can always let me know via email. It's jennie@reprosfightback.com. Or you can reach out to us on social media at @ReprosFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosFB on Instagram. Or you can reach out to me personally on social. I'm at @JennieinDC on Twitter, or I have a Bookstagram account at @allbooksandbread on Instagram. So happy to chat, and any of those, if you have any suggestions, I am open. I haven't had, like I said, I haven't had a chance to really look. I know a couple years ago I read All Boys Aren't Blue by George M. Johnson, and I just absolutely loved it. And I know right now it is like the second most banned book. So, I highly recommend if you're looking for a book to read, that is one of the ones I would pick because I really, I just loved it. They tell a wonderful coming of age story about growing up Black and queer. So, definitely recommend it. Yeah, so hopefully you can all take some time to fight back on all of these book bans. So let's turn to this week's episode, which is, like I said, a book I'm very excited to have on Hannah Matthews and her to talk about her wonderful book, You or Someone You Love: Reflections from an Abortion Doula. Y'all, I really loved this book when I read it. It really spoke to me in a number of ways, and you'll hear about some of those in this episode. but yeah, I highly, highly, highly recommend it. With that, let's turn to my interview with Hannah. Hi Hannah! Thank you so much for being here today.

Hannah: Thank you so much for having me, Jennie!

Jennie: Before we get started, do you wanna take a quick second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Hannah: Sure. I'm Hannah Matthews. My pronouns are she and her. I am an abortion clinic worker, a care worker, community care worker, a doula, a part-time journalist, writer, author, a musician, a mother. Oh gosh. There's lots, lots of other identifiers, but those are probably the most pertinent ones that will come up. I'm also cis, I'm white, I'm queer, I'm disabled and chronically ill. I have type one diabetes and I have given birth and I have had abortions.

Jennie: Oh my God, I love that introduction. It was like all important.

Hannah: It's a lot.

Jennie: I have to say we're gonna talk about your book a lot today and one of the things that like right away, like from the jump, like not even 10 pages in, I think like, just like grabbed me and I felt to my bones, was you talking about having anxiety and depression. And oh, "you're not mad at me, right? Like, we're, we're good. Like I'm just assuming you're mad" and oh my God, I felt that in my bones. I have that all the time. It's so hard.

Hannah: It's so hard. And I think that you know, one of my identifiers, especially, like, as I move through our work and our movement work for sure is white woman which brings into the room with me so much baggage. And also, I think it's pretty inextricable from my mental health issues and my kind of, like, fawning trauma response and my need to be liked and my need to avoid conflict and my need to be a good white woman and all of these things. And so, I think it's important to kind of name that I'm coming from this place, not just of whiteness and being socialized as a woman and being a white feminist in this movement or being perceived as a white feminist, right. But also, how my own stuff, like interior stuff comes out in interactions around race and gender and sexuality and work and labor and class and all these things that are, you know, kind of big fault lines in our movement sometimes.

Jennie: Yeah, for sure. So, one of the things you mentioned is you're an abortion doula, and I think that's something that maybe a lot of people aren't as familiar with. Do you wanna talk a little bit about being an abortion doula?

Hannah: Yeah, I would love to. So, right, most people when they hear doula they think or assume it's within the context of birth work and childbirth and postpartum and pregnancy and perinatal care, which is all really incredible, really important. And I am in community with many full spectrum doulas and birth doulas, but I only do really once in a while I'll do some birth work, but I really only do abortion doula care work which entails supporting someone through their abortion experience. So, before, during, after, sometimes years after right, because there's really no, just like, you never stop being postpartum, sometimes you never stop being post-abortion. And there's always, you know, healing and processing and care work to be done. But so, I'll support folks financially, logistically, just helping them get their appointment, get the funds they need for their care, get the supplies they need for their aftercare, get to the appointment, get home, be safe, be you know, remain private and secret if that's something they need, travel, all of that. So, I'll support them emotionally, you know, spiritually, if they are someone who needs a lot of companionship, a lot of kind of mutual aid, not in the material sense, but in the, like, they need to know that they're in community and what they're doing is normal and what they're experiencing is normal and collective and things that other people, you know, know about and feel good about and feel okay about. I will support them physically. I'll provide, you know, some verbal anesthesia for their pain. Some you know, a lot of the things that apply in labor and childbirth and miscarriage and, you know, all these things apply as well in abortion care. And so, sometimes folks do need a lot of support, you know, physically or around pain or around things that their bodies are experiencing maybe for the first time. And yeah, I'll support them, you know, in terms of just anything they need. So, every abortion is its own experience, and every person comes to it with their own needs and their own comfort level around asking for help or wanting different kinds of help. So, and all that is not to collapse the meaning of the word doula, but it's kind of like when people ask me like, oh, what does that look like? I'm like, it really can look like anything.

Jennie: Right? It's, like, when someone asks you, like, what's your typical day at work? And I'm just like, ah, there's just not such a thing, right?

Hannah: Yeah. There's no such thing as a typical abortion. There's no such thing as a typical birth. So, there's no such thing as a typical, you know, hour, minute day in the life of a doula.

Jennie: I think the next part that really struck me when I was reading your book was talking about the values exploration work you did at your organization. And as someone who, like, bringing, like, my past into it, like I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic school K through eight, like, sex ed from a nun, so when you talk about like anti-abortion stigma, just being like in the ether, I just like grew up—I wouldn't say like super surrounded with it because as much as I've definitely heard worse—and, like, people really getting it, it was just kind of part of the ether, even if it wasn't like extreme, right? Like, it wasn't a lot, but it was there. So, like, working through all of that in the years since I've started doing this work, like, it just really struck me as like trying to unlearn all of that old stuff that just is around.

Hannah: Yeah. And that's really hard work and I think we really feel a lot of pressure to just immediately unlearn it and have it be gone from our psyches and-

Jennie: Anxiety!

Hannah: Anxiety and, you know, needing to kind of show up to a space fully formed and fully educated. And it's like, listen, what you take in as a child, like these are children learning how to view the world. And if you're learning to view the world through an anti-abortion lens or through a very stigmatizing lens or with a lot of shame you know, you can't just wave a magic wand and be free of that, right? So, I always like to tell folks like, you're allowed to feel any kind of way about someone else's abortion. It's a) having curiosity about those feelings and where they're coming from and kind of how they're feeling and your body and how they're affecting you and how you move through the world and interact with other people, and then b) recognizing that your feelings really have nothing to do with someone else's right to have that abortion. So, people are, you know, parenting in all kinds of ways that I have feelings about, people are making choices in their sex lives in ways that I might have feelings about or discomfort with and that really has nothing to do with their right to do those things, right? So, it's just something that...it has taken me a long time because again, like a lot of shame and when I have a feeling or a thought that it doesn't align with what I think are my values or what I want to be my values, that's really uncomfortable and that can be really distressing, even. And especially I think for folks in abortion care, you know, it's really, there's not a lot of time or space to kind of process your own feelings about what you're witnessing and what you're supporting and what you're engaging with. But I just want everyone to kind of feel, [inaudible], like no one wants to be part of an ungenerous movement, right? And so I think about that all the time of like, no, it's not okay to bring in stigma in a way that harms other people, but we do need to recognize that people are coming to the room and they're showing up with their own, you know, past lives full of years and years and years of messaging, implicit and explicit, you know, things they've been told about their own bodies, their own sex lives, their own worth as humans. And it's really difficult to just unlearn that.

Jennie: In so many ways, right? Like, I find it showing up in like the oddest places. It's really helped to recognize that it exists. Like, once you, like, know that that's what's happening, it's easier to take a beat within yourself and be like, "wait, where's this coming from? Like, where's my discomfort? Like, why does this matter?" Like, it really helps to recognize it because then you can start, you know, taking it apart and then building it in ways that you wouldn't if you didn't know it was there.

Hannah: Yeah. And pretending you don't have any complicated feelings serves no one, right? Like if I pretended that my own abortion experiences were just straightforward and I felt nothing but joy and ease you know, that really wouldn't serve...it certainly wouldn't serve me and my healing and processing and, you know, all the like ways I need to kind of work through my own feelings, but it really wouldn't serve other people who are having their own complicated experiences. So, I just think name it and claim it and, you know, talk about it all.

Jennie: I think that brings us to like the next part that I thought was really thoughtful to talk about and that you don't often see, like, in the front of the movement, like it's talked about, but it's not like at the front is grief and how that's not necessarily something that is publicly grappled with in such a way where it is like in embraced fully in the movement. So, it was really great to see you talk about it.

Hannah: Yeah, I think it's, again, it's just so important to, like, acknowledge that these are human beings in human bodies experiencing human things. So just like, you know, birth and parenting and pregnancy are not just like simple, straightforward things that involve only sunshine and rainbows and excitement and that's it and there's no grief and there's no transitional phases and fear and rage...pretending serves no one. And so, for someone to be able to say like, listen, I had an abortion, and this was the context in which I was having it and this is how it felt, and this is how it felt the day after that, and this is how it feels now. And you know, like, we're all shifting and changing all the time. And I think it would be doing such a huge disservice to the actual human beings who are having abortions, which is what I care about to pretend that's not the case or to kind of put pressure on them to, like, stay quiet about any, you know, negative or positive emotions or sensations that they're having. And abortion care is medical care. And medical care can be enormously difficult, frightening, traumatic, right? So, I do think, again, there's this kind of pressure maybe within the movement and radiating outward to make sure that people know that abortion can be, like, really easy, really safe, really no big deal. And that is absolutely true, but I do think that can make folks feel really invisible, not affirmed, alone, scared to talk about their own abortions, which is...you know, my goal is that like everyone understands that it's safe to say whatever they want about their own abortions because that's their right. Just as much as it's their right to have their experiences, it's their right to describe their own experiences. And it also really kinda raised folks who are having abortions later in pregnancy, which as abortion bans kind of, like, this domino effect proliferates across the country that's gonna be more and more people who aren't just able to have the really simple, straightforward eight-week medication abortion at home and go about their day, right? Like, more and more folks who would have been able to have that abortion experience before these bans are being passed are now having to wait...they're later in their pregnancies they potentially need more medical interventions. It's like, we can't make those people feel like their abortions are worse or, you know, less like, should be less visible. Like, that's not okay with me.

Jennie: Yeah. This makes me think of, did you ever read Katey Zeh's book, A Complicated Choice? She really kind of gets into that.

Hannah: Yeah.

Jennie: I love Katey. She was on the podcast to talk about it when it came out.

Hannah: Oh, beautiful. I'll have to listen to that episode. I haven't heard that one.

Jennie: Yeah, she's wonderful. Anywho. So, but then also you talk about like, kind of the flip of that, right? Like, the joy in abortion and, and I really love that you kind of talk about this whole range of things because people are complicated, right? Like you said, there are multiple ways to feel about it.

Hannah: Yeah. And I feel like so many of our kind of, like, so much of the like conservatism we're seeing that is really harming people comes from this place of like, pretending that's not true. And pretending humans are just like black and white, on a binary, can behave in one way or the other, like, there's right, there's wrong, right? It's, like, pretending we're not gonna have sex that doesn't benefit us or that doesn't feel great, or pretending we're not gonna have sex that does feel great but isn't for procreation. Like all these things, it's like-

Jennie: Pleasure, what?

Hannah: Exactly, which I think is where we see a lot of anger in society, like anger at poor folks for having- experiencing pleasure or frivolity, anger at fat folks for experiencing pleasure and abundance in ways that, like, we've denied ourselves. So, we- our reflex is to be really angry. And I think the same applies to sex and therefore to pregnancy.

Jennie: So great. I love embracing the joy of it. And I really also appreciated the story you told, I think in that chapter, where a daughter was struggling with needing an abortion and talked to her father about it. And he's like, "hey, my partner had an abortion and that's how I was able to have you later." And like that was delightful to see it talked about so positively, hear it coming from a man, which is getting to be like a little more common to hear, but like it was great to hear 'cause it's still pretty rare.

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel so strongly that cis men who can't be pregnant, have never been pregnant, like...abortion absolutely has shaped their lives and will continue to shape their lives and like access or lack of access to good affirming safe abortion care is a major factor in like their ability to live their lives. Not as much as it's for birthing people and people who can be pregnant, of course. But they need to, like, really wake up to the fact that they have a personal stake as well in, you know, the state choosing to legislate our sex lives, our pregnancies, the way we build our families, and when and how. So, I think anytime I hear from a dad or, like, anytime there's been a man at one of my book talks who's, you know, even if often they're saying things that I'm like, oh dude, like just, you need to like read some one-on-one stuff or like, talk to a woman about this or, you know, talk to queer people in your life about like this terminology. But I still am just like lit up when I see men getting involved, whether that's men being clinic escorts and like helping to protect the sidewalks outside of clinics because they know that protestors, you know, might respect the authority of a cis man more than they do the generally women and queer folks who are working as clinic escorts. Or whether that's fundraising or getting involved in...you know, so many abortion access orgs and abortion care orgs need, like people on the backend, software developers, you know, data folks. And so many men in my life not only have these skills, but really love being called upon to use these skills. So, I just, yeah, anytime I see a dude, like a cis dude who maybe hasn't felt that personal stake before, kind of like waking up to the fact that he has a personal stake in the fight it really lights my fire.

Jennie: That's so great. I think the other one that was really sticking with me...I mean the last couple years have been hard, right? Like, couple years, decade, whatever, like it feels like this, like, ramped-up level of the fight ramped up even more in the last two years. So, the chapter on abortion was hope, just felt necessary.

Hannah: Yeah.

Jennie: Do you wanna talk a little bit about that?

Hannah: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I am pretty upfront about the fact that I am not doing very well, emotionally, mental health wise. Like, almost no one I work with or am in community with I think would describe themselves as having a good time right now or in a good place mental health wise, you know? And so, what is something that can fuel the broke, the exhausted, the burnt out, the traumatized, you know, it's that, that action that is showing up and that is hope. Like you don't have to feel hopeful. You don't have to feel...I have friends who are able to take a longer view, especially friends who are like attorneys or who really know the law, you know, they're able to take this longer view and say, you know what? The pendulum's gonna swing back. Like, we're gonna, we won this case, we won this case. We're gonna win this case. This judge is gonna retire, this district attorney's gonna retire. Like, they're able to kind of take that long view in a way that I don't really feel optimistic in the same way, but I keep showing up to work every single day and every time I get a text that says I need help with my abortion, I'm answering that text and I'm connecting people to a ride or I'm giving them a ride. And like that is hope. And that is what brings me joy. So, even though I'm not able to imagine a more joyful future necessarily, and even though I do let this water into my boat every day, right, the water of despair, of pessimism, of pain, I'm still rowing and that's hope and I'm still working. So, I think people experience hope in all kinds of different ways, but I, the way I really witness it around me and the way I experience it is just that we just keep showing up and keep showing up and keep showing up. And I also think like, if you look at the anti-abortion movement in the US, they showed up and lost, showed up and lost, showed up and lost, they still show up and lose. They lose and lose and lose and they keep showing up. And that is something that, like, I think we have replicated in some, like, obviously folks who work in clinics and providers like that is something we replicate, but I think that's something we need to replicate in the way we kind of like talk about our movement and the way that advocacy orgs, you know, talk about the fight is, like, we can lose and lose and lose and lose, but if we're still showing up like that, we're doing our job.

Jennie: Yeah. I feel so much of that, right? Like, again, same, like, I don't know anybody in our space who is like, "I'm doing great, like, everything's fine." Like I just, nobody is really in a great head space. And yeah, I am one of those people who like...I know that the better future is there and like will get there and, like, I know that. I can't quite see the path at the moment and, like, getting bogged into the like day to day of having hope, getting through like the day of, like, thinking about all the people who aren't able to like get care and, like, it's really easy to turn to despair and, like, really trying not to. But I really loved the starfish story you told. Do you wanna tell that?

Hannah: Sure, yeah, that the doula told me. So yeah, I was speaking with this doula who was talking about just the difficulty of kind of that long view, that big picture hope or optimism and just not feeling it organically, not really being able to manufacture it. And so, then they, you know, reminded me of this parable, which is this man stepping onto a beach and the beach is covered in starfish that have washed up. And they're stranded, they're beached and they can't get back into the water because they're starfish. And so they're all kind of suffering and may die if they don't get, you know, access to the water they need. And so just one by one, he starts picking up starfish and kind of tossing them back into the ocean and there are thousands and thousands of them. And so someone who's with him says like, "you know, this is pointless. Look how many there are. Like it's pointless to do that." And he just keeps picking them up one by one and saying, "well, it wasn't pointless for that one. It wasn't pointless for that one." And I think, you know, this is kind of, and this doula acknowledged like this could be a little bit trite or cheesy or like not resonate with folks. And I think that's totally fair and there are definitely times when I'm like, ugh.

Jennie: Yeah.

Hannah: But I do think this is some, I think this is something that working in direct care it's a really good kind of parallel because if I'm helping one person have the abortion, they need the abortion, they want the abortion that feels right for them. I'm helping them keep their kids safe. I'm helping them, you know, get the food and the medicine they need. I'm helping them get through that day or that experience. That's enough, right? Like, that's my whole job. And I say, like, my place in the revolution is, you know, just holding someone's hand or next to someone's bed or in the exam room with someone. So even though when I think about the number of people, right, when you think about 25 million people who could be pregnant and are without access to abortion care in their own communities, like, these things, you know, or the number of live births that have happened since SBA passed in Texas that we know means children in foster care or minors having to drop out of school to parent that, you know, maybe didn't want to or weren't ready to parent. Things like that, like that can feel just so paralyzing and so overwhelming. But when you think about the one person whose hand you're holding or like under, okay, this person needs dilators at this time, and like I know that this person has a hotel room that they need to get back to or, you know, whatever. That proximity to the individuals having the individual abortions, I think is what keeps me going. So, I have so much admiration, respect, and frankly awe for the folks who are in kind of the bigger picture work and like the advocacy work who are not in the clinics and, like, in the spaces with the people having the abortions. Because I think that over time, like that kind of hope to maintain is a different, it's like a more theoretical hope that you have to kind of, like, sustain and protect and nourish in yourself. So, whereas my job kind of just provides that to me day-to-day, does that make sense?

Jennie: Oh, yes. As somebody who is the advocacy, like sits in the advocacy space, like, totally. But what I let give me hope is people like you who are doing the work, like, just all the people on the ground who are doing the really important day-to-day work of making sure that people are able to access the care they need. Like, that gives me hope. Seeing all of that amazing work be done even in this terrible landscape we're in and like going and continuing to do the advocacy to make that, that makes that continue to be true and expands to cover everyone. But seeing the amazing work that was being done on the ground is what keeps me going every day.

Hannah: Yeah, yeah. And we're also dependent on each other, right?

Jennie: Yeah.

Hannah: But I just think I've come to realize it's just like a skillset I don't necessarily have, like whenever I get too far from the clinic or too far from direct care work, I start, like, really losing myself. And my mental health for sure takes a nosedive [laughs].

Jennie: That's so funny because like, I feel like a little bit maybe like it could be the opposite for me.

Hannah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Like, I'm such a bit of an empath that I think like the day-to-day of like having to work with people and turn people away would break me. Like I just, like, I don't think I could do that part. So.

Hannah: Yeah.

Jennie: Right? Like I replaced your strengths.

Hannah: Yeah. The revolution needs all of us. And don't get me wrong, I have frequent breakdowns [laughs].

Jennie: Oh sure.

Hannah: I'm not, again, I'm not like doing well. But yeah, I think it's really important to be like, okay, what's my lane? What's my role? Where are my skills and where are my pleasures, right? Where are my joys? What gives me that energy to keep going? Because we all need to really sustain our work and ourselves because this is a long, long, long fight.

Jennie: Yeah. and it's finding those little things, like I...Great British Baking Show is my happy place when things are really dark, like, Great British Baking show, which inspired me to start baking and, like, making bread. So, like, little things that, like, just whatever you can find that is like your little bit of joy and happiness. Like I can tell how bad I'm doing if I'm like, okay, I need to binge Great British Baking Show. It's like the thing that is set aside for, like, when it's real bad.

Hannah: Yes. Like, am I eight episodes bad or am I 12 episodes bad?

Jennie: [Laughs]

Hannah: Yes. And I love talking like when people are having their abortions or if we're in the waiting room or we're, you know, in recovery spaces and if, if folks are having a really bad time. I do, those are some of the conversations that I really remember and that stick with me of, like, oh, what are you gonna watch tonight? Or like, what are you, what music are you gonna listen to? Or what food are you gonna eat? That's just like your, you know-

Jennie: Yeah.

Hannah: -comfort and pleasure and your joy because that is something you deserve. Even if you can't fully feel it right now, like what can we help you access that would normally give you that?

Jennie: So, I usually wrap up episodes by asking, like, what can people do? But I feel like we had kind of a disparate conversation that there's not really one thing. But maybe for this one, if people are interested in becoming an abortion doula, like, what should they think about? Like do you have any recommendations of what they should be looking into, things like that?

Hannah: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, I think kind of the first thing to do is familiarize yourself, like, get curious with: what are the reproductive justice needs in your own community or the communities through which you're gonna be moving and in which you're gonna be working, right? And so, great ways to do that are kind of see what your local abortion fund is doing. Are there clinics in your community? And if there are, like what's going on there? And then there are so many incredible doula trainings and a lot of them are localized and, like, a lot of them are connected to those local funds, which I think is really, really important because, like, I live in a state that is very particular, both in terms of legal access but also in terms of, you know, demographic, transportation, economically, like, it's a very strange, complicated place. So, you know, these are the things I think you'd need to figure out is, like, who needs support? Who needs doula care? How does- what does that look like in my community? And then what are the gaps that I can help to fill, right? Because there are gaps everywhere. Even if you think you live in a really safe state or a high access state, you know, there are major gaps everywhere in folks not being able to get the care they need or not being able to, like, stay safe and healthy and protect that joy as they're getting the care. So, what kind of support can you provide? So yeah, I would say first reach out to your local funds, your clinic, see what they're doing, what they need. And then there are trainings that are so incredible and kind of universal. I always point folks to Dopo Support, which is, it's international, which I think is really cool because you get to kind of see what it looks like to be a companion for someone in another very particular place. And that can really inform like, oh, in this place it's completely illegal. Abortion is banned, like these people are breaking the law and doing X, Y, and Z. But how is that something that I can, you know, take to inform myself when it comes to keeping folks safe in my own community or keeping myself safe? Things like that. And then it helps to just kind of become culturally competent as well and think like, okay, like, you know, people from different cultural contexts have very different, like, desires around abortion support, so what might that look like? And then I'm trying to think...Birthing Advocacy Doula Trainings also has some really great and their founder Sabia Wade just wrote, just published a book called Birthing Liberation, which is really incredible and I think everyone should read. And Cornerstone has some really, really great support resources and training. And then I also, you know, there are places like All Options and Exhale, which is a text line, which are really great kind of lower commitment access points for folks who maybe don't feel safe or don't feel prepared to do in-person companionship work or, like, for whatever reason, you know, that's just like a bigger ask for them and they would feel more comfortable or they're more able to take a shift on a hotline, talking to someone on the phone or texting, like the Exhale text line is really a beautiful resource because folks can text, you know, at all hours and say, I'm at my sister's baby shower and I'm having a really hard time because I just had an abortion last month. And you know, these things that I think we don't think about people needing necessarily, like, doula support or care work weeks or months before or after their abortions, but they really do. And it's not just like a magical time frame. So, I think those resources are really great for people who are kind of just dipping their toes into the doula waters. It gives you some physical distance for sure. And it also allows you to, like, take on a very, like the container right? Is a two hour shift and then you are done with that shift and you, like, debrief with someone about how it felt for you and what you learned. Maybe you, like, write down some reflections and then you go about your own, you know, raising your own kids, doing your own work, whatever. So, I think those are some really great kind of starting...some really great little windows and doors you could kind of enter through.

Jennie: Oh, that's so great. I love the range of resources. I love the, like, if you really wanna get into it, if you wanna try dip your toe in, like, super important to have all of the options, like in all things.

Hannah: Yeah.

Jennie: Well, Hannah, thank you so much for being here. I really loved talking to you.

Hannah: Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. And sorry for my technical difficulties.

Jennie: Everybody definitely check out Hannah's book. You Or Someone You Love. It is wonderful. We'll make sure to post the bookshop link so that you can find it and support your local bookstores. And thanks!

Hannah: Yeah. I also just wanna flag for folks that a hundred percent of any royalties I earn from sales of the book are going to abortion funds.

Jennie: Even more reason to go out and buy it. Okay everybody, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Hannah. I had a wonderful time talking to her and again, I highly recommend her book, You or Someone You Love: Reflections from an Abortion Doula and we will make sure to include a link to her Bookshop where you can buy it on bookshop.org. So with that I will see you all in a week. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!