North Carolina Has Over 6 CPCs for Every Abortion Clinic

Crisis pregnancy centers (CPCs) are unregulated storefronts that exist as a way of pushing out anti-abortion misinformation and blocking people’s access to care through deception, shame, delay, and intimidation. Tara Romano, Executive Director of Pro-Choice North Carolina, talks to us about North Carolina’s CPC landscape.

The term "crisis pregnancy center" refers to anti-abortion facilities that mislead, confuse, delay, misinform, and purposefully re-direct pregnant people looking for education and services, including abortion care. North Carolina has 16 abortion clinics and approximately 100 CPCs, which are typically clustered around college campuses. CPCs in the state began receiving money from the sale of “Choose Life” license plates and $350,000 from general funds in 2013. By 2023, the number was closer to $20 million. Because these are not medical centers, they do not have medical restrictions or medical privacy restrictions. 

Map photo citation: Swartzendruber A and Lambert D. Crisis Pregnancy Center Map. https://www.cpcmap.com. August 17, 2026. Accessed: August 24, 2026.

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Pro-Choice North Carolina on Instagram
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Preying With Pseudoscience: Crisis Pregnancy Centers’ New, Dangerous Rhetoric

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Hi, rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I spent last week out at a conference when you're hearing this. I'm actually recording this the Thursday before, so on August 20th. So just if something has happened in the intervening week, that is why I'm not talking about it. And since I literally just finished recording the intro for last week's episode, I don't really have a ton to talk about. So, I was struggling to think about what I wanted to discuss in the intro as our little welcome. And so, I thought, you know, I have some questions that I didn't get from the AMA. So, maybe in the next couple episodes, since I always am like, I don't know what I want to talk about in the intro, I might just answer one of the questions from the AMA that I didn't get a chance to answer instead. So, this week, the question is, what is my favorite way to eat cheese curds? And what and so I also expanded that a little bit to like foods I missed from back home. I had just brought cheese curds into the office that my mom had sent me. Thank you, mom. So, one of my coworkers was asking about my favorite way to eat them. And so, my top-tier way to eat them is walking around the square in Madison eating fresh cheese curds that were made that morning. Like top-tier experience, cannot beat. Perfection. That is not something I do very often when I get home. There's other things going on. We don't, like, take the truck up to Madison to go to the farmer's market, so I haven't had that in a very long time. But we do go to Decatur Dairy, which is not too far from where I live, and we'll go and get cheese while I'm home, and then also get their cheese skirts. So, my favorite way is to eat them fresh. Generally, I just love the plain regular ones, but they also have an amazing dill one and a garlic and herb one that I really love. So, that’s my favorite way. The way that I generally eat more when I go home is the deep-fried ones. Like that is a top-tier way to eat cheese curds. When I get home, depending on the time of day, like I'm like, let's go to Culver's or somewhere that has fried cheese curds, and I will get that right away. So yeah, that is like my other favorite way. I'm sure there are other presentations, but those are generally the two. I'm gonna get them fresh from Decatur [Dairy], and we will have them in the fridge to eat that week I'm home, and then we'll definitely go to some places where I can get some deep-fried ones. So, that is how that happens. And then I also really miss Culver's. I know they have spread out of Wisconsin at this point, but they're not here yet. And so, it's really something I only get when I am home. I want to go there right away, and I will generally get a thing like fried cheese curds and a hot fudge concrete shake, which is made with frozen custard. That's generally all I want. Like that is like it will happen at some point while I'm home, depending on when I get home. It may be like as soon as my mom picks me up from the bus that I take from the airport to get to Beloit. And then, I also something I they're just so ubiquitous back home that I took it for granted and didn't realize it was like such a unique Wisconsin experience until I moved to DC, and like you don't really see it in the same way, like it's everywhere in Wisconsin, and that is Friday fish fries. That was just like Friday night. We would go somewhere and get fried fish, and my favorite one we went to growing up, you we would get fried fish, and it came with a side of coleslaw, and then you could pick your other side. And I always got potato pancakes with applesauce, which ugh, so good. I miss that so much. I haven't had that since the place we used to go to to get it closed, but we still will go to a fish fry when I'm home often. It was just like the Friday thing back home. So, I do miss the fish fries a lot. I also really miss kringles. Now I can get them because Trader Joe's has them, and so when I go to Trader Joe's, I will generally pick up an almond kringle, which is like a ring pastry. So good. But I always also get one when I'm back in Wisconsin because nothing says home like that to me. I guess my mom's cooking also, so there's always special things I have her make when I'm home, or sometimes I'll make them too. I just maybe it's something like I won't cook for myself. Like, there's a shrimp thing we always make when I'm home, and I can easily make it, and I will make it sometimes when I'm there, but I just it's more than like for one person, and it's so I don't make it on my own. The other thing, I usually get together with one of my aunts that lives near me and one or two of my cousins, and we will go to a Wisconsin supper club for dinner. Sometimes there's more aunts and uncles that will come with, but for sure, my Aunt Kathy and my cousin Heather and John. We will generally go to some Wisconsin supper club. It is a very unique Wisconsin experience where you get, I don't know, it’s just a Wisconsin experience, and then the supper club drink would be a brandy old-fashioned, which I know is not traditional anywhere else, but that is how it is done in Wisconsin. And then I think my mom would be like, what are you talking about? You did not mention the crab rangoon at this place we always go to. It is my favorite one. I've not had anyone anywhere else that it just speaks to me in quite the same way. So, whenever I go home, that is like Culver's and Chinese, and to get those crab rangoons are at the top of my list. And then the last thing, and this doesn't happen very often, but if I'm home in summer, which doesn't happen super frequently, I want to go somewhere to get Blue Moon ice cream, which is a very Wisconsin, maybe a little broader Midwest treat. I feel like whenever you ask people what it tastes like, everybody kind of has their own version of it. I think it tastes a little bit like Fruit Loops. It kind of has that kind of flavor profile. It is something that instantly takes me back to my childhood and I love it. So yeah, those are the things I've been thinking about for Wisconsin foods I miss. Okay. I hope y'all enjoyed me taking a stab at some of the AMA questions we missed. I have a couple more that I'll do in some episodes coming up. If you hated it, I'm sorry.

But let's get to this week's episode. I am very excited. We have on Tara Romano with Pro-Choice North Carolina to talk about crisis pregnancy centers. And we talk a little bit specifically about what is happening in North Carolina, but it is also just a broader story of crisis pregnancy centers and why they are so problematic and what you can do to fight back. So, with that, let's go to my interview with Tara.

Tara: Well, thank you for inviting me, Jennie.

Jennie: I'm really excited to be here. I'm so excited to talk to you today. I feel like it's been a little while since we've talked about crisis pregnancy centers, so I'm excited to do that. But before we get started, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself?

Tara: Sure. My name's Tara Romano. I use she and her pronouns, and I'm the executive director at Pro-Choice North Carolina, which is a statewide advocacy organization doing advocacy around the full range of reproductive healthcare options, making sure people have the resources and information that they need to access the healthcare that they need, where they live, when they need it. And we also talk a lot about holding crisis pregnancy centers, otherwise known as anti-abortion centers, accountable.

Jennie: Perfect. Well, and that leads perfectly into what we're talking about today. So, I think before we get into the fuller conversation, we should probably take a minute for anybody who is unfamiliar. What are crisis pregnancy centers, anti-abortion centers? What are they?

Tara: That's a great question because I think a lot of people still don't really understand what they're about, but they've been around since the '70s, since Roe in 1973 legalized abortion in all the states, and so they've been in a response to that, and they are basically there to make sure people are not able to access abortion. They do it in a lot of different ways. A big way that they do it is by like they will sort of present themselves as a health center or maybe even a medical center, and you'll see billboards that say things like: "Pregnant? Scared? Come to us for free services." And so, that's the way that they get people in, and then they spread a lot of anti-abortion misinformation, propaganda. What they're trying to do is either shame or intimidate people out of accessing abortion or even asking those questions if that's what they're thinking, or even just mislead people about what they may be seeking, the care that may be available and how they can get it. So, they really do exist as a way of pushing out anti-abortion misinformation and then really trying to stand in the way of people accessing care. Not that they, you know, people are resilient and they look for the care that they need, but [anti-abortion centers] are really trying to insert themselves to make sure people cannot get that care, or they then feel confused about maybe the care that they're seeking.

Jennie: Yeah, and I also feel like in a world with gestational bans, there's also a lot of delay, right? Like, telling them maybe they're too far along and can't get the care, or they need to come back and "come back, and we'll talk," and like pushing them and pushing them so that people get pushed past the gestational ban in their state.

Tara: Yes, absolutely. I mean, one of the things, and we'll talk a little more about this, is like a lot of them, including in North Carolina, get tax dollars, and that allows them to do things like buy ultrasounds, and they will use the ultrasounds really as a way to get people to think that they're off getting medical care. And so, they will try to- I mean they may or may not know how to date a pregnancy, but they certainly will say things like, 'this is how far along you are,' and we've even heard stories of you know, not even just like potentially misdating where the pregnancy is, which can then either say, 'oh, we're already too far along,' or you know, just keep coming back and telling them, 'yeah, you have plenty of time.' But also, we've heard stories, including like in a documentary, where somebody said, yeah, they were just told they couldn't access abortion in that state, right? So, just giving and for people who don't know, like a lot of times the way people may find a CPC is they will type into a search engine, "where can I get an abortion?" or "where can I find [abortion care]?" and one things that we’ve seen certainly that these centers do with some of their tax dollars is something called Search Engine Optimization, right? So, that they are the ones showing up before an actual abortion clinic. And so, people will call thinking, okay, this place will give me some options, they'll at least give me good information. But one of the things we're seeing is that that is not as what is happening.

Jennie: The way they name themselves also, people assume they're going to a place where they can get the full range of care and see all of the options and aren't aware that what they are getting is not that and that it could be dis- and misinformation and shame. Don't forget the shame.

Tara: Yeah, definitely. I think there's a lot of you know, trying to I mean, there's so much stigma around abortion or even seeking care, like, getting a pregnancy test can be very stigma-inducing. If you are a young person and you're afraid somebody's gonna find out that you're taking this pregnancy test, even it's a way, it's just and it really contributes to it. They exist because of that stigma. Because people don't feel comfortable saying, 'hey, I missed a period, maybe I should take a pregnancy test,' you know? And so instead they're trying to hide it. And so, you see a place that says "confidential care," "free care," "questions? come ask us." And so, they really are exploiting the fact that people don't have the information they need. They may not have gotten very good sex ed, depending on where they were exactly what I was just covering up. And so, they may not really know what they're looking for. And so, if they do have their own doctor, they're afraid, yeah, especially if they're a young person, like, 'I'm not going to ask my doctor about this.' And so, they're just there to exploit the fact that people don't even know actually what they should be getting asked at a medical center, and certainly like not being really sure about the information about pregnancy, their periods, sexual activity, all that kind of stuff.

Jennie: Yeah, you read my mind. I was like, as you were talking, I was like, yeah, and thinking of, like, I talk about often on the podcast, I had sex ed from a nun. So, the shame-based sex ed, the lack of information I got, would have made me very easily fall prey to something like this if I had tried to seek care.

Tara: Yeah, yeah, they definitely really, I mean, I think they're they sort of exist in this space that exploits a lot of things, like the stigma and the lack of really good general education about anything around sexual activity and pregnancy, and also, like, really exploiting the fact that a lot of people just don't have access to health care. There are definitely people who go to these places who are not seeking an abortion, but they are seeking some sort of care, and they may not have health insurance. North Carolina did not expand Medicaid until just a few years ago, and now it, you know, they struggled to get it fully funded this year. And I think there's still, and you know, there's looking at work requirements, like at following the federal level. And so, you have people who are just like, I can't afford to go to a doctor, I don't have health insurance. And so, I think that these places also exist in that space too, to be taking advantage of bringing people in who might not otherwise feel like they have any other place to go.

Jennie: It's so insidious the way all these like different threads weave together to make people vulnerable. Let's talk a little bit about crisis pregnancy centers in North Carolina, a little bit maybe of the history, but I know you also want to talk about using North Carolina as an example, but it's also a trend broader nationally about funding for crisis pregnancy centers.

Tara: For sure. I mean, North Carolina is not unique in terms of funding. And so, I would just sort of give you the landscape. North Carolina is a big state, it's geographically big, it's population big, its population is large. And we have 16 abortion clinics, like, standalone clinics. They're clustered in metropolitan areas, and for a big state like North Carolina, like, that is definitely a lot compared to the states around us in the south. And we're a really big state, and lots of people still have to travel really far to get to those clinics. Contrast that to about a hundred crisis pregnancy centers, give or take. And they also tend to be clustered around colleges, which is one of the things we've seen. Now, this was a landscape analysis we had done probably like eight or nine years ago, looking at, you know, because anti-abortion centers kind of come and go in terms of like they're up and then they're down and they're going someplace else. But the landscape we looked at the time, we did see like about 80% of them were within a 15-mile drive of a campus because that is really a target audience for them. And so, in North Carolina they started getting money in 2013, so that was 13 years ago, and at the time it was just money from the choose life license plates, and of course, you know, we advocates tried to get like some sort of pro-choice license plate. We were not allowed to do that, and the US Supreme Court said that that's fine. We didn't have a case, but other people placed it in Texas. And so, they started getting money from those, and then it was like maybe $350,000 from the general funds, was dedicated to crisis pregnancy centers. And it was at the time, it was for a place called Carolina Pregnancy Care Fellowship, which is like an umbrella organization of state CPCs, and they would sort of re-grant. And so, in that time, you know, that was 2013, and so by 2023, the number was closer to 20 million dollars. I remember talking to people about the 350,000, and like that's not that much compared to the budget. I'm like, it's gonna be more. Like, once you turn on that revenue stream for these places, they're gonna get more. And 10 years later, it was about 20 million dollars.

Jennie: Wow.

Tara: And so, and a lot of times there's still a lot of it goes to like the umbrella organization. There's a firm that goes to a place you probably are familiar with, the Human Coalition, which is a Texas-based anti-abortion group. And then, there's a lot of direct appropriations that just go directly to these centers. And, you know, these are places that are if they have staff, it's a lot of times volunteers. Again, and they're not providing medical care, which means that they don't have the cost of a medical center. And we just are not sure what they're doing with that kind of money. There are places like they're sort of storefronts, maybe, we don't know. I mean, we don't have a lot of information about them. And one of the things I will also share is that when I first started at Pro-Choice NC, which was in 2016, I was able to get a report because they get state dollars, and so they have to report what they're doing, because that's very common, and I think that's something people think is good oversight. Like you do a report when you get state dollars. And so I'd gotten a report uh about some of the regranting that had been happening, and it wasn't super detailed, but it was it talked about what they were spending their money on, which was like, you know, sending people to anti-abortion conferences, you know, sending their volunteers or staff to anti-abortion conferences, buying products like that were like DVDs that were anti-abortion or like things that you could do that were contributing to like anti-abortion information. And what you saw was actually a lot of money going back into the anti-abortion industry at large, right? And of course, those places used that money to go ahead and then advocate to ban abortion, right, and restrict abortion. So, it really was, it didn't look like a lot of money was being spent on actual patients or health care. And so, but now I would say in those 10 years with all the money, even more money going to them, like the reports. We do have advocates, well, we have champions in the General Assembly who've been able to work with our DHHS to try and get reports. There's just even less information. Like now it just says how many people they talk to, maybe, right? So, it we're not even sure, like if they're doing these amazing things around reproductive health care, like they're certainly not reporting it. And so, I mean, I do think one of the things we're looking into is like, what are they doing with this money? Like, we certainly don't know.

Jennie: Yeah, and you would think like people are going there hoping to get good information or services, and I'm sure it's not just abortion services that people are trying to get, right? Like they may go and try to get family planning or other types of services that then they are not provided, and I'm sure aren't then, you know, provided referrals or any of the things to find a place where they can get those services.

Tara: Yeah, I think definitely, like, we know people also go there just seeking maybe like a pregnancy test, like they just want to do that, or they're seeking prenatal care, and they're not getting that either. And one of the things we do have a lot of concerns about like the way we've seen the anti-abortion centers run, which is like they just want you to keep coming back in some ways to make sure, like, either you've passed the deadline to get an abortion, or that they're not sure if you're still thinking about abortion, so they want you to keep coming back. But they were scrubs. I mean, many years ago when I first started, one of the things we've seen from these anti-abortion centers, whether or not they use the tax dollars or their other donations, but they'll buy buses and they will park in front of a a clinic, an abortion clinic, and try to intercept the people going into the clinic. And so, when I first started this job, I was in Charlotte and I was visiting one of the local abortion clinics, and the people on the bus stopped me. They thought I was going to the clinic um to access care, wanted me to get on the bus with them, had an ultrasound on that bus, and you know, they were wearing scrubs, they were really speaking very nicely, and did say, like, you know, just come on, like maybe you're having a miscarriage, like, well, just come on to the and get the ultrasound here, right? And so, like, people, so you can see how people, even if they're not seeking abortion care, will be like, well, this is offering healthcare. And if you don't have access to healthcare, like somebody wearing scrubs and has an ultrasound, it feels like you're getting health care. Even though all they're doing is maybe like, and maybe they know how they're- I'm guessing there's been some sort of training. We don't know how medical it is the training they get to operate an ultrasound, like because they're so unregulated. That's one another thing, too. The healthcare industry is one of the most regulated industries, and CPCs are not part of that. And I think they also try to be, like, they try to sort of posit themselves as providing some sort of healthcare, but when you want to talk to them about regulations, they're like, “well, that's not what we do. We're not healthcare, we don't need to have those regulations.” And so, you know, like we don't know what they're really offering when you go in and get an ultrasound. And some of those ultrasounds are the kind [where] you're sort of using something externally, but others are internal, internal ultrasounds, and we don't know what kind of training these folks are getting, and we don't know-

Jennie: I didn't even think about that part.

Tara: I mean, some of them are. We've heard, I don't know if you have seen— I can't remember, the reporting, it may have been the States Newsroom— but they're talking about some people who are like there are people who have nursing backgrounds, they are opposed to abortion, and so they look to be able to try and work in some of these places. And some of them, you know, they support, I think, ways to stop people from accessing abortion, but they were concerned about how they were using ultrasounds. We've seen some people speak out about that, including, you know, early in pregnancy. I do, I'm not a doctor, so I don't want to get into using what if you when you use internal.

Jennie: When it’s appropriate.

Tara: Yeah. But I mean that does happen. And so, people are getting these and they think they're getting medical care. And they may think that they're getting prenatal care, and they're not. And of course, prenatal care is time limited. Like, you need to be getting it by a certain time, and the earlier the better. I know a professor I had spoken to locally here, had done some some recent research, and a paper had come out earlier this year where she was, you know, saying, like, even when people wanted to get prenatal care, you know, and they went to a CPC, they were delayed in getting that care. And of course, like that's just something like that. We, North Carolina has- we're above average when it comes to maternal mortality. And we just don't have as good maternal health outcomes for a lot of reasons, including that we didn't expand Medicaid for a long time. People could not get care. And then you have these places sort of potentially adding to that because like they're not like we need serious policies that address what is happening when it comes to maternal health care and the crisis in our state and in our country. And these are not serious policies. These are just about politics and ideology and promoting misinformation, promoting a certain ideology, and keeping people from getting the health care that they need.

Jennie: The other thing that all of a sudden flagged that we haven't mentioned yet, as you were talking about, like they are not restricted by like medical restrictions, that also means they're not covered by like medical privacy restrictions, right? Like they are not as obligated to keep your information private.

Tara: Right. Now they because the services they provide are not covered by insurance, because they're not providing medical services, they're not covered by HIPAA. And so, HIPAA is the Health Insurance Portability Protection Act I think is what it is, but it's something people, a lot of people know, they are familiar with the term, and they have an expectation. I go to get healthcare services, I am going to have these are going to be private, they're not gonna be used somewhere else. And so, one of the things is that they're not covered by HIPAA. Now, sometimes they would say that. Now, I think, you know, we have a lot of national partners who do great work sort of investigating what's going on with these anti-abortion centers, and I think there's, you know, they've been reporting back that these anti-abortion centers are starting to understand, like, saying that they're covered by HIPAA when they're not is, you know, not good for them, right? Like that's potentially a liability. But they do say they have privacy practices, but you read, like, you know, you have to read what those are, and some of them that I've seen will say, like, you know, we will keep your information private until we don't, right? Like, until something comes up. And of course, you know, we do think about how like there's like these really big umbrella places that will help people set up an anti-abortion center and make it look like it's a really local place, but really, they're getting support from these national and international organizations, you know, like Heartbeat International is one of those. And then they will, you know, because these places, like they do have some money from they're coming from the state, but it's not like they have all the money they need to be running like a database or having staff for that kind of stuff. And so, they potentially will get like this database that they can be using from these, you know, as part of like that's a benefit to them of being a member of these national groups. And like, so is the information we don't know. Is it being then uploaded into databases that many people could have access just beyond whoever is in that individual center? And I don't think they've been good at answering that or assuring people that they don't have that information. And of course, I mean, a whole other thing we think about too is when it comes to surveillance of people seeking reproductive health care, like it does make us very nervous about information that these folks may have and what I mean I'm not sure what they may be thinking, but I do know, and this was years ago, and I think they've stopped doing these things because they were pretty heavy-handed, but they people would talk about going to an anti-abortion center to get a pregnancy test, you know, not sure if they're gonna get an abortion, and getting postcards to their house from the center to be like, thanks for stopping in. That way, sort of alerting everyone in their household, right? Or even calling their household. You know, I mean, those are pretty heavy-handed tactics. Like, I don't know that they still do those, they might be savvy or to not do that kind of stuff, but it was definitely a way of you know, just suddenly being like, now suddenly everyone in my house knows I went to this place, or they called the house. Or sometimes, I've even heard stories-

Jennie: There are real safety concerns there.

Tara: Yeah, absolutely. Certainly, particularly when you think about young people or people going who do not want people to know that they were going to take it, get a pregnancy test or that they were talking about this, you know, whether or not they were seeking abortion, like they might also want to be hiding a pregnancy, or you know, not telling certain people that they are pregnant, right? And so, it's really, you know, and definitely I think one thing about patients in our country is they have an expectation of privacy. Like that is just something that, you know, there's a lot of confusion around medical care, and I think a lot of it is willfully abstract, you know, like it things can be really complicated for patients to figure out, but they do have this expectation of patient privacy, and that's just not there at these places because it they're not covered by it. Like they are not actual medical centers. I mean, that's a big thing. It's like they're not covered because they're not actual medical centers, but then they still will put themselves out there as that, right? And they won, they will have that kind of language on their websites when they talk about themselves, you know, in front of the General Assembly or legislatures, they will talk about providing this medical care. But then there's so many things that indicate, like, if you were providing medical care, you probably might be covered by HIPAA, you might take insurance, and you also would be regulated to, you know, like you would, I mean, healthcare centers have a lot of regulations. People will show up for inspections. Like, there's just a lot that goes into providing medical services in this country, and we're just not seeing that from these centers.

Jennie: I feel like we've already touched on a bunch of this, but is there anything new or what you're seeing now that you're just kind of keeping an eye on in that space?

Tara: Definitely, we think a lot about the potential for surveillance, just because, you know, as abortion restrictions get tighter in certain places, like what does it mean for somebody to go thinking that they can talk about abortion care in a place where maybe and then give them information and give them health care information, and then it's just been stored with this place, right? And also we have some immigrant rights partners that we work with as well in North Carolina, and we've talked about concerns around safety of undocumented folks going to these places because you know, undocumented communities are already blocked from accessing a lot of health care in North Carolina in so many ways, and then you know, looking to be like, here's a place that says they offer free care, and they'll say things like we speak Spanish. And so then we, you know, we're just worried about again, like that's just another layer of potential surveillance and try and you know, again, these people may not be seeking abortion care, but they may be seeking other kinds of care, and of course, like there's the surveillance around undocumented communities, surveillance around abortion, and then also like as you tighten abortion restrictions, you're also looking at more and more ways to criminalize pregnancy in general, right? So, if you are somebody who maybe is concerned because maybe you are addicted to substances, and maybe you're going to a center like this and you feel like you can talk about it because you feel like it's safe and it's private. I mean, we're just seeing abortion restrictions are about criminalizing pregnancy, right? And that's like it's people I think sort of get lulled into because anti-abortionists want us to think that it's about, oh, it's just about abortion and restrictions and women's safety, but it really is about criminalizing pregnancy for people, criminalizing pregnancy outcomes, so it doesn't stop at abortion, it stops, you know, it it becomes like you have a pregnancy outcome somebody didn't like, they want to blame you for it, that there's lots of ways that they can start to criminalize pregnant people uh for these outcomes or the choices they make, and as they get more restrictive, because really you see an end goal for people, some real extreme people in the anti-abortion movement, is to really police people during their pregnancy, and what would it mean for these centers to be part of that? So, we just think I think about the surveillance and also like I mean, one thing that we're really it's the money they're getting, right? There's more state money and now federal money, right? They talk about like the Title X money, which is the money for family planning, now being diverted to these places that don't do family planning, right? And so, I mean, I think and like really growing them to be like there's such a site of misinformation and disinformation and really right-wing propaganda, and having those that you can just put up in some rural town, right? And people don't have access to healthcare and suddenly they're getting all this information. I mean, we we see these as a way of also radicalizing the people who go there who, you know, I've heard of people, I've met people who have gone to these places like they want to provide help for women or pregnant patients who are in situations and they're not sure what to do, and they think that this is helping. And I’ve talked to people who have come out of that being like, I didn't like what they were talking about, or who started to really who maybe were on their, you know, maybe had their feelings about abortion and really didn't like people accessing abortion, but they, as they saw what was happening within these centers, they got really concerned. Like the centers weren't providing care that people were asking for, they were just talking about anti-abortion stuff. Or then we also see potentially that people get radicalized at these, like they may go in thinking, like, I don't like abortion, and and then they, after a while, they're just like, well, it absolutely needs to be stopped and criminalized. If you've seen the film Preconceived, the documentary, there is somebody there who leads one of the main anti-abortion, anti-abortion centers networks, and he talked about being in church and the pastor talking about abortion, and right after that they went out and protested at an abortion provider's house. That’s very much a radicalization, right? And so, I think that they also exist to be doing, they're a pretty key part of the right-wing movement as well. Yeah. Like, they try to present themselves as kind of like the gentler side of the anti-abortion movement— “they're just here to help”— but they really are part of it.

Jennie: They're really good about putting that like that gentle face on, right? Like when they were having the case about the sidewalk protesters, it was just like this “little granny praying for people.” It wasn't what was actually happening in the places. It just made me think of that. Okay, so what can we do to bring accountability to this? Like, how can we hold them accountable for the misinformation and the lack of help? People are going and not getting the services they need, not finding the right information, getting wrong information that could be harming them.

Tara: I mean, that's a great question. There's a lot of things that people can do. Like it, you know, one of the first things people want to do is sort of turn off the money that they're getting. And because it's so political, that can be hard to do. Like, one of the things I would say is like, make sure you're voting in every election, right? And I would ask candidates what you think about this, right? Like what they think about this kind of money. But in general, I would say to start individually, let's start there, is like, you know, make sure you know what is available in your area. And because people, I mean, I've had people call me and ask if this place was an anti-abortion center or a CPC, right? And that's great.

Jennie: Like, real good at hiding it.

Tara: Yes. And so, I think one of the things I think about is helping people to know where they can find a free pregnancy test, which is often a public health department. I mean, you know, people maybe don't always have great experiences at health departments, like they have to wait a long time or all that kind of stuff, but it is a place that people can access care, or like helping people know where they can access actual reproductive health care, being that person that people can talk to. Like, I think that's the thing too. People sort of think, like, oh, we don't talk about abortion. But people who have had abortions like are listening to how people talk about it, right? And so, I think if you can be that person that somebody's just like, you know, I've heard this person talk about reproductive health care and abortion, like they're not gonna judge me, they're just gonna, there's somebody I can talk to. Like, try and make yourself that person. And so, but also, like, if you hear misinformation about like, oh, this center sounds great, they're having like a 5k to raise money, you know, maybe say, like, do you know what they actually do? You know, and do you know what they do with that money? Like helping people understand what's in their area. And I would also say, like, you should go ahead and research what if they're in your area.

Jennie: And what you might be surprised.

Tara: Yes.

Jennie: There's one very close to my office in DC.

Tara: Yeah, I mean, and you'll see billboards for them. Certainly, there were ones close to universities here in Raleigh. And so, I think I know potentially, like, if you can be offering, like, there's like Reproaction and Abortion Access Front, and the University of Georgia has a CPC program where they have a list or a map of where these places are. And I would encourage you to look and see like what's in your state, what's in your town, and then kind of figure out what the heck's going on at those places, you know, and it's a way then and then share that information, you know, like because they will absolutely particularly target college students. I mean, I know I don't know how much they do it now, but they definitely used to show up on college campuses, like for freshman orientation, like when they were having the community fairs and that kind of stuff. And so, I think it's great to like sort of just if you see something like that, like don't just unfortunately you can't just assume that that might be a great place to go. Like you can check and see. And then one way, some ways that you can check is to be like, are they associated with any kind of legitimate healthcare? Like, they don't have to be, but oftentimes clinics are, right? You know, they've got some sort of association with like a hospital or healthcare center or something, you know, or like looking at like they have information about like the medical training that they've had, right? If they don't have any of that kind of stuff there, that’s a red flag. But I think so educating yourself about what's in your area, what are actual plans, like how you can get that information out, depending on your communities, and then certainly talking to your lawmakers about like, hey, I think, you know, I finding if they get that money in the budget, I think one of the things that you can do is like you can, I mean, in North Carolina the media has gotten better at reporting that they're getting this money. Like, they don't necessarily report everything they do, but they're like, hey, and some of the money was going to these anti-abortion centers, right? So that's a way of knowing, like, that your state gives this money that and your state probably does, depending on, I mean-

Jennie: There's quite a few of them.

Tara: Yeah. So, but if they do, you know, go ahead and talk to your representatives about that. Like, say, I don't know what they're doing. Like, do you know what they're doing? Should they be audited? Like, it's fair to ask. Any place that gets state dollars, it's fair to ask. Like, we don't want the state to always be going after places um and abusing their power like that, and states can do that. I mean, particularly from a consumer perspective as well. Like, you know, if they feel like they are, you know, like your attorney general's office or your state lawmakers. It's fair to ask, like, what exactly are we getting for that money? And also, are we actually providing actual reproductive health care? Like, that's a way to so I think there's ways that you can be talking about it with elected officials, with your communities, and certainly with people you know who might end up seeking out those places or might just be looking them up online because they're just not sure where to get that kind of care. So, those are some things that you can do. I know that if you've ever been to one, like you can certainly in you can leave your Google review or your Yelp review, particularly if you felt like you did not have a good experience, because we've definitely spoken to a lot of people who just did it range from like felt like they were really being hostile to me, or just like I just didn't like it, they were kind of creepy, right? You can also use those, you know, like you leave those as yelp reviews as well of um places to let folks know. So, that's a way of taking a little more direct action. But we also have people, groups in North Carolina who will stand outside of a CPC and protest and say this is not a real clinic. We don't ever want them to be like we know what it's like when people stand out protesters stand outside of abortion clinics and can be very harassing and disruptive. And these folks often are not trying to scare the people who might be accessing this care, but they want people who drive by it to know like this is not an actual clinic. So, those are ways that you can take some action as well.

Jennie: I love that. There's a lot of great suggestions, and also, I would think, like, if you have experience with a crisis pregnancy center and you are interested in or would like to share your story beyond Yelp reviews, I always [talk about] the power of storytelling for people to understand what this actually means, right? It's one thing for us to talk about how those services present, and it's another thing for a person to talk about. This is what I experienced, and so it can be very powerful to add your voice in that way as well, even if it's just storytelling among your friends and people you talk to, like, it really has the power to change hearts and minds.

Tara: Yeah, and we won't be- you know, because I do think sometimes in addition to the stigma around abortion and seeking out care for an unplanned pregnancy, like sometimes people might feel a little ashamed, right? Because they feel like they were duped.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tara: And so, they're meant to dupe you though, like that's what they're there to do, right? And so, and they often have the power of the government behind them to do that kind of duping. So, you know, I don't want people to ever feel like, oh, I felt so stupid. I went to that place. Like, why would you? They're there to make people confused. And so, I think, that can keep people from talking about, too. I mean, actually I knew somebody who- she went to one of these like 20 years ago, and she didn't even she never really realized what it was until later when she started working in abortion advocacy, right? They're just confusing places, like they just- they're there, and maybe you didn't have a good experience. You're like, what the heck was that even? And you just don't even really sort of make any connections until maybe you hear about it because people don't talk about those kinds of things.

Jennie: Well, I was just thinking that, right? Like the silence breeds the ability for it to continue. And I was thinking of that in terms of like Catholic hospitals, and like I'm sure you've been in many a place where somebody starts telling you a story about a friend or a friend of a friend who is telling them the story of they were gonna have a C-section and asked if they could have their tubes tied at the same time, and they're like, oh, we can't, that's not a good idea, we don't do that, but they don't tell the people like why, like that it's because they're a Catholic hospital. Like if you were somewhere else, you could absolutely have that. And so, and they may not know they're at a Catholic hospital, right? Like they have anyway, that's like a whole 'nother thing. But it's that thing that flagged in my head: the more we talk about it, the more other people will be able to recognize when they're in those situations.

Tara: And a lot of people really do, you know, they may not be able, like they may not find your podcast or my organization or listen to the things we're talking about, but they often listen, especially when they're confused about things, like they'll look to people around them to help give them good information. And so, we always want people, we want our supporters, like, you be that person who has good information. People can come talk to you. There's just so much silence around all of it, like, unplanned pregnancies, abortion, complications in pregnancy, like and it doesn't mean you need to know all the things, yeah.

Jennie: You just need to know where to point people so they can get the good information. Being a resource doesn't mean you have to have all the answers. Yes, because you won't. I don't have all the answers.

Tara: Yeah. And so, being somebody I think just people know that they can ask you a question, honestly, you know, I think is a good start. And that you can try and help them with their best interests in mind. Because that's all people need is just, like, they want to make their decisions, they want to think about these things, but they need to have the information and the resources to be able to do that. Not somebody with some sort of agenda trying to really force them into decisions that are really gonna impact their lives. And that may or may not have been a decision they wanted to make if they had all the information that they wanted.

Jennie: That feels like a good place to end, making sure you have all the information you need to make the best decision for you. Tara, thank you so much for being here today. It was such a pleasure to talk to you.

Tara: It was wonderful to talk to you. Thank you again for inviting me. I really enjoyed this.

Jennie: Okay, y'all. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Tara. I had so much fun getting to talk to her about all things related to crisis pregnancy centers, and I will see everybody next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media or at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com.