Purity Culture, Sexual Assault, and Christian Colleges: A Toxic Mix

 

Purity culture, or the expectation that women remain sexually “pure,” is widespread throughout evangelical communities. Purity culture stems from the idea that men are inherently sexual beings and that women are not, placing the burden on women to be the gatekeepers of sexuality in evangelical communities, as well as to “control” the desires of men. Becca Andrews, reporter with Mother Jones Magazine, talks to us about purity culture and sexual assault at Christian colleges, with an in-depth look at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago.

To better understand what is happening at Christian colleges like Moody Bible Institute, it’s important to first understand Title IX. Any school in the U.S. that accepts federal funding must follow Title IX guidelines, which address discrimination on the basis of gender in educational institutions. Title IX has religious exemptions which allows schools to still follow the broad tenets of Title IX while being able to skirt issues that conflict with their religious beliefs. Betsy DeVos, Secretary of Education during the Trump administration, expanded and broadened these religious exemptions so that any school could claim religious exemption, even if a complaint made it all the way to the Office of Civil Rights at the Department of Education they can retroactively make the religious exemption claim.

 Moody Bible Institute has a history of Title IX infractions; for example, the school has kept women from participating in pastoral programs up until 2017, and they have also faced claims of discriminatory employee termination. In October of 2020, multiple students from Moody Bible Institute compiled their stories of sexual assault in a Google document, eventually crating a Change.org petition for their school to address its failings. These students were continually dismissed and paternalized by Moody’s dean, felt that the Title IX office mishandled their cases, were not presented with the appropriate resources or support for their cases, and reported that most communications and procedures regarding their cases were held within the context of the school’s deep-rooted purity culture.

Becca’s article follows multiple students who bravely shared their stories of assault, abuse, harassment, discrimination, and lack of systemic support from Moody Bible Institute—all of which stems from the rampant purity culture that undergirds the programming and culture at Christian schools.

Links from this episode

They Went to Bible College to Deepen Their Faith. Then They Were Assaulted—and Blamed for It.
Becca Andrews on Twitter
Becca Andrews Mother Jones
Sexual Assault on Campus: Will Title IX Rule Changes Make Schools Less Safe? rePROs Fight Back podcast
The Biden Administration Can Fix Title X rePROs Fight Back bonus podcast

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, fall is finally here. And I think I talked about, I mean, I know I have that. I'm trying to be better about taking care of my mental health and that means taking mental health days more often, not just because I need them, but I want to encourage the staff around me at our office to take them as needed. You know, we're all so burned out right now that we just need to do what we can for our mental health. So I'm really trying to encourage that. And I'm also been taking days off. I have a bunch I need to take before the end of the year. And I swear, I'm just going to be taking random days off to do fun things. So I recently took one on a Friday and I had like the most fall Friday y'all it was so much fun. A friend and I went and we did wineries. We drank some wine and ate good food. And then we went to go apple picking. And by that we obviously picked apples out of bins. I was not about to go apple picking, y'all I'm five foot. I just know it's so much easier to pick from the bottom of the bin. That is how I do apple picking. So we went and got a bunch of delicious apples. I'm not really sure what I'm going to do with mine yet. I was thinking one, I've just been eating them, but I think I might make an apple crisp. That sounds like really warm and lovely and fall-y. So I think that's, what's going to happen, but we also got apple cider donuts and I had one of them and it was delightful. And I got kettle corn, which is also one of my favorites and that, and then y'all, I was introduced to apple cider slushies. I had no idea such a thing existed, but wow. Did I need that in my life? It was everything I wanted and more, it was perfect. Yeah. That made me so happy. And then we went back to my friend's house and another friend joined us and we had fall pasta…I think it was like pumpkin sausage. It was delightful and perfect fall food. And then we had an actual, like fall night and watched Hocus Pocus. So I think I, I like just missed the age, like when Hocus Pocus came out, like, I think I was just like a little too old for like a Disney movie to be cool. So I definitely came to it later than a lot of people, but I still do try and watch it every year. So, but I'm have been thinking about like, what Halloween movies do I need to watch this year? So I always try and watch Addam's Family and Addam's Family Values because they're just my favorite. They're just like perfection. I love them so much. And let's see what else... I'll sometimes watch Nightmare Before Christmas. And that's where I'm really at when I think of Halloween movies for me. So if anybody has any other ones that I need to be watching, uh, last year for the first time I watched Halloweentown because Disney+ had like all of their Halloween things available. So this year I am taking advantage of Disney+ pulling out all of the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror episodes. And so I've been watching those, I have to say, honestly, one of my very absolute favorite segments they did…from the very, very first one and which they did the Raven, I don't know, for some reason it just makes me so happy. I love it so much. Yeah. So I'll probably be trying to watch some more Halloween type movies. Um, and I would love to hear what other people do, what are y'all doing to celebrate fall? It's honestly like my favorite time of year. I dunno. It just makes me so happy. I am avoiding watching Wisconsin football because they are just not having a good year, but like, that's always what I would think of when I even think of fall because I had season tickets for so long when I was growing up. And then when I was in college. So like, that was what you did on Saturdays, right? Went to pre-games and went to the game and have a lot of fun. Um, so like that was what my weekends are based around. So it was really weird when I moved to DC and that kind of fell out of my life, but now I'm picking up other new fun, fall things. So, okay. I guess maybe we'll leave it there. Y'all don't want to hear about all the things I did this weekend or whatever. Let's get to the main part. I'm really excited for this week's episode. I am like…it hits all the things that I really love talking about. And so honestly, this whole podcast, so I guess, you know, this whole podcast is all things I want to talk about, but I'm really excited. We have Becca Andrews with Mother Jones on here to talk about this great piece she wrote on bible college and purity culture and sexual assault. So I'm so excited to have this conversation, make sure to go and check out her piece. It's called “They Went to Bible college to Deepen Their Faith. Then They Were Assaulted and Blamed for it.” It was really good. It really, it got into a lot of the things about the harms around purity culture and um, how Title IX failed these people at their school and how purity culture has really created this environment to perpetuate harm for young women. So it's a [big] conversation. I hope you all enjoy it. So I guess with that, let's go to my interview with Becca.

Jennie: Hi Becca. Thank you so much for being here.

Becca: Hey Jennie, thanks so much for having me.

Jennie: Um, before we get started, do you want to go ahead and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Becca: Uh, my name is Becca Andrew, my pronouns are she/her, I’m a reporter at Mother Jones magazine, but right now I'm on book leave to write my book about abortion access in the United States and the barriers to access. So I'm super excited to be on this podcast.

Jennie: Oh my God. It sounds like we're absolutely going to have to have you come back.

Becca: Please, please, because I'm terrified no one is going to buy my book about abortion.

Jennie: I don't think you're going to have to worry about that. There's one or two things going on right now that I think is sparking interest.

Becca: Yeah. Yeah. That's very true.

Jennie: Okay. So I'm so excited to talk about this article you wrote for Mother Jones, um, purity culture and sexual assault at Christian colleges focusing on Moody Bible Institute. But maybe we should like take a little bit of a step back while I think you and I are very familiar with it. Maybe we should start with talking about what purity culture is?

Becca: Oh, absolutely. So purity culture is a thing in evangelicalism where, you know, the women are expected to remain sexually pure. And that doesn't just mean within the context of intercourse. It's also in the context of like the ways that women dress and the ways that they speak. It's about like very controlled bodies, very controlled, like, tone of voice, all of that good stuff. It's just the expectation basically that women are demure and pure. Above everything else though, it also creates this expectation that, you know, if you're in a dating context, the woman is supposed to be the gatekeeper, right? Like the woman is supposed to be the gatekeeper of sexuality. So it's on her to stop anything before it goes too far. Men even joke when men are often told that, you know, from a very young age actually, which I found really disturbing, that they can't control their sexuality. And that it's just like deep, inherent part of them. And so, which is why like, so much burden is placed on women because women are told that they are not inherently sexual, which has its own set of problems. So you create this dynamic, right, where like men are told they can't control themselves and women are told you have to control everything. And so of course, like that leads to some dynamics where, you know, sexual assault happens.

Jennie:Yeah. And I think, you know, purity culture is very much part of the evangelical culture, but it definitely is bled out in as much bigger. I've talked about that. I went to Catholic school K-8. And I think when I have, and like learned a lot more about evangelical culture, I saw how much stronger it was there. But a lot of that was also familiar with what I had with sex ed and like growing up in the Catholic church of like, you're responsible for saying no. And again, like boys can't control themselves was also very much a part of like what I had growing up.

Becca: Yeah, totally. I grew up in west Tennessee and actually my first feature for Mother Jones magazine was this piece about my experience in abstinence only sex education. And I went back as an adult and embedded with the people who taught me and it was all that same stuff. So like, it's interesting how that stuff has bled into the culture more broadly. I think Jessica Valenti also has written a lot of really great stuff about this. She has a book, the Purity Myth. That was just a big deal to me. The first time I read it, I was like, oh my God, it's not just me. This is a whole thing. Like, this is the whole power structure. It's crazy when you start seeing it, you know?

Jennie: Well, and that is kind of, I feel like another part of it too, is that you do feel like it's just you.

Becca: Yeah. I was like something is wrong with me. Who's also like a sexual being like, I must be like deeply flawed and evil. Like it really fucked me up. I think it fucks up a lot of young women.

Jennie: That's certainly something we've talked about is like the shame embedded in all of this. And like, you know, I've worked in sexual and reproductive health now for a long time, but still some of that like shame and stigma embedded so young, it really sticks with you, even though I know better now, but like it's still there.

Becca: Totally. I'm 30 years old. I write about this stuff for a living and it's still there. Like, it affects me. I'm not past it. Like I've dealt with it and you know, a lot of ways, but I can't figure out how to like totally root it out, you know?

Jennie: Yeah. Okay. So that brings us to the piece you wrote about Moody Bible Institute. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the piece and what was going on there?

Becca: Sure.

Jennie: And we'll link to the piece as well.

Becca: Cool. Thank you for doing that. So basically, you know, a couple of years ago when the #MeToo movement was really ramping up, there was this offshoot of it called #ChurchToo. And I did an investigation into sexual abuse within evangelical circles broadly in the way that like the #ChurchTo hashtag and the women who were leading #ChurchToo were sort of bringing forth this like daily stories. And they were all just like eerily familiar and similar and it wasn't just women. It was, it was men, too. So that's sort of how I ended up looking…that was my first foray, I guess, into this specific subject earlier this year, the co-founder of #ChurchToo emailed me and was like, “Hey, you know, like you're someone that I trust. I know that like this has been going on at Moody for a long time. I thought you might be interested in looking at it.” It was one of those things where like a lot of it had sort of been happening publicly already. So that was really helpful to me as a reporter; a lot of women had already really come forward and had posted this Change.org petition, asking the school to address its issues with Title IX and the ways that these women felt they had been mistreated or abused. And also just like not given their due process and like not given like the respect of having their allegations properly investigated and then being protected afterward. So I think in going into this, something that I bring to the table with stories like this is that like, I am a former evangelical and I was also sexually assaulted in this context. So like, I understand the importance of telling these stories on the terms that the people who have experienced it, you know? So I spent many, many hours with these women on the phone because of COVID talking about their experiences and just like really digging into what happened in the ways that Moody's Title IX system was it existed, but sort of in like the barest form of the word, you know, like these women that were manipulated out of filing Title IX complaints, they were shamed when they brought complaints. The Dean was very paternalistic and very condescending when they brought issues to him and it all stayed really framed within purity culture. So, you know, one of the women, Anna Hayward, was punished for being raped. She was put on probation. Just… the more that I dug into it, the more I found… I will say they are revamping their Title IX processes. They've had an independent investigation. And I think that a lot of that is great. It seems like a lot of their recommendations are being taken seriously. And I thought some of the recommendations were good, but I also think that you can't fix this problem of sexual assault in these dynamics without addressing purity culture. And I don't think that they're willing to do that for obvious reasons.

Jennie: Yeah. It really bled through so much of what you wrote. And so much of what these, if I remember correctly, girls, I think everybody was female, on this was were told, right? There were so much of, “you need to take responsibility for your role in this, were you drinking?” lots of the typical, like what were you doing wrong that enabled this to happen? It was very victim-blaming. I wrote that multiple times as I was like taking notes on your piece was like, it just jumped out so much.

Becca: Yeah. Or they would like sweep it under the rug completely. As was the case with the professor who is really grooming one of his students who became his assistant. I mean, HR was just like, all right, you don't work very hard. Don't talk to anyone about this ever.

Jennie: Yeah. And never told them about Title IX. Becca: She was never presented with any options other than like find a new job, which was really hard for her because obviously, like she needed that job. She needed the money, she needed the assistance that came with the job. And then to just be told, like, “you've been getting harassed and it's on you to like figure it out, by the way, don't tell anyone.”

Jennie: Yeah. It was pretty heartbreaking. Cause like, you know, so many people don't go and ask for help. And for these girls that did then being like turned away or encouraged not to file… one of them was encouraged not to file Title IX complaints or she wouldn't graduate. Just like all of these things that help wasn't available

Becca: Totally. Or like you see in the case of Megan Wohler’s like, she reached out for help, time and time again. And each time she was pushed away and each time I think that cut her deeper and deeper and deeper. And it's just, it's just heartbreaking.

Jennie: Yeah. Because like, it's so amazing that she was able to reach out so many times. I feel like if you have like a bad experience, you're not likely to keep trying, right? Like if the first person you talked to is like, “oh, what were you doing wrong?” Or “you need to take responsibility for what you did.” Like that's really going to discourage people from continuing to try. And that also is just really heartbreaking to just like force them to suffer.

Becca: Yeah, and to that end, like I have been so blown away by these women and like the time that they have spent with me going through all this detail that I know is extraordinarily painful for them, I think it takes a great deal of courage and fortitude to be able to do something like that. Especially after what they went through, then they tried to seek help. So I'm very, very grateful for, for that and for their trust.

Jennie: Well, yeah. And especially in that system, right? Like the system that is just perpetuating purity culture and run by purity culture, like is not set up to be a welcoming space for having these types of conversations. I think something you wrote in that piece was talking about how, if you're not willing to admit that sex is even happening, let alone sexual assault, like how are you going to move forward?

Becca: Right. I mean, sexuality is just as like icky thing that no one wants to like really talk about except for “don't do it.” And you know, when, when you have that sort of aversion to discussing sexuality, which is a very core part of being human, then how do you address it when it goes horribly, horribly wrong? And I think the other thing with purity culture that is maybe a little bit less talked about is that, you know, women are told from such a young age to like be chaste and whatnot, you know, let things pass a certain point and you know, like not be sexual and then they get married and literally the night of the wedding, they're expected to turn that all around and have sex and enjoy it. And it's just like, you can't like, you can't embed someone with that kind of aversion and that kind of fear and then expect it to just all go away after like one party. Like that's ridiculous. And I think that has also really damaged a lot of women.

Jennie: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I guess the next part of the story that you started to talk about was the Title IX process, do you maybe want to do a quick, like, what Title IX is then talk about what went wrong here?

Becca: Totally. So Title IX is a federal rule. Any school that accepts any sort of federal funding has to follow Title IX; basically it seeks to end discrimination on the basis of gender. So, you know, you hear a lot about like Title IX and women's sports, but you also hear about it in cases of sexual assault and harassment, anything that makes the campus or place of learning hostile on the basis of gender. So as a woman or, I mean, this also, you know, before this piece, I wrote a piece about Title IX and a university in Jackson, Tennessee, close to where I'm from, and the ways that the religious exemption allowed pretty severe abuse of LGBTQ students.

Jennie: So it doesn't just affect women. It also can affect the LGBTQ community and others who may be discriminated within an educational institution.

Becca: Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't have said that better myself. Yeah. So, you know, in theory, it's supposed to protect people who may be enter these educational institutions with, without as much power and as much privilege as, you know, maybe like the white male students or professors or whatever it may be. And the 1972 Title IX was originally signed into law by Nixon. And there was also an exemption that was meant for a religious school. So it's a religious exemption basically says that you should follow the broad tenants of Title IX, but if it conflicts with your religious beliefs, then you sort of get a pass and the exemption isn't very well-defined. And when Betsy DeVos was Secretary of Education, that exemption became even more broad and even more sort of chaotically implemented. It's like she widened it so that basically any school could claim religious exemption even after the fact. So if a Title IX complaint made it all the way to the Office of Civil Rights at the Department of Education, a school could even retroactively claim religious exemption and claim that that case isn't relevant on the basis of their religious beliefs. And in Moody's case, they use the religious exemption for a few different things. One, they used it for a while to keep women out of a pastoral studies program. So in certain evangelical circles and most evangelical circles, women are not permitted to preach. They're permitted to minister to other women and children, but not to men, because men are sort of seen as like the leaders and the moral authorities. So that came to a head when Moody started accepting Title IX funds. There was a professor who really fought for her female students who wanted pastors to be admitted into this program. Eventually they won the, like the details of all of that are a little bit fuzzy because the Title IX complaint was rejected, I think a couple of times, but then it seems like the political pressure within the school was so great that they were just like, “Okay, fine. Like we'll let women into this. Gotcha. Yeah.” They [have also had history] where [an employee] was saying she was wrongfully terminated from her position on the basis that she was so vocal about gender equity on campus. And she was very forthright about the fact that she is egalitarian, which means she believes the sexes are equal rather than complementarian, which means it's more of like a separate but equal approach where they think that each gender has like specific strengths and weaknesses and together, they come together to form a perfect vision of guide. Conveniently, the women are often the ones who are disempowered under complementarianism.

Jennie: Weird how that happens!

Becca: I know! It's so strange! [lauhgs].

Jennie: Yeah. It really seemed everyone thinks that Title IX is there to really help. And, but when you see these big religious exemptions that allow some of these schools to get away with not helping the women within the school, it, I don't know. It makes me so sad to think… feel like we've come so far, but yet looking at some of these more religious schools and seeing, and I'm sure it's not just them, right? Like it's not just them.

Jennie: Oh, it's absolutely not. But this is, uh, what we're talking about right now and seeing how in particular it has not been as helpful to women as it has been tried to be. There's like a specific cultural context here that we're talking about in the ways that like purity culture and this avoidance of sexuality, you know, creates an environment that is directly at odds with ending gender discrimination on campus. But yes Title IX is not perfect and it's not implemented perfectly by any stretch of the imagination that this is yes… there are a lot of really incredible activists working on it and lobbying for. So there is that too.

Jennie: And if people are more interested in knowing like what happened under the Trump administration, we have a couple episodes with Shiwali Patel at the National Women's Law Center talking about what the Trump administration did, what the Biden administration is doing, too.

Becca: Oh, she's the best. So good. She's quoted in the, in the Moody piece. I talked to her and I basically got her and I was like, well, you just explained to me, I'm very confused. She's very smart about this stuff.

Jennie: Okay. So what do we do to fix this problem? Like what needs to happen? And I'm sure this is like a multilevel problem, right? There's like Title IX problems. There's purity culture, but you can take whatever part you feel you want to talk about or all of it.

Becca: Okay. So I will say like, as a reporter, I'm certainly like a lot better at like documenting the problem than solving it, like the advocates and activists and like the incredible legal minds out there are much more suited to that than I am. I will say that, like, I don't think that we can address this problem without dismantling purity culture. And without really honestly, without like valuing women as full human beings, you know, like the, the solution really is to just treat women like they're people and to treat LGBTQ + folks like their people, you know, like stop making it, this thing where, you know, women have to like stay in control and are told like that they must fit a certain mold. And that, that mold really isn't in service of male sexual desires. And you know what, like quit doing that to men too. Like, I think it's really screwed up that we tell these young men from a very young age that like, “you have this thing that you can't control. Like your body just does what it does and you can't control it and then are very visual and very sexual.” And so like the women have to cover up and you know what, like “if you mess up, it's really not your fault.” Like that is really messed up. Like for, for men, like who want to be healthy adults and who want to have like healthy sexual relationships? Like what the?

Jennie: Yeah. I feel like that goes to the like, listen, nobody is, I mean, there's some people who are benefiting, but like… purity culture hurts everybody. So often the focus is the women, but like, yeah, the men growing up in this as well, like are not getting healthy images of themselves and definitely not healthy images of women either.

Becca: No, totally. And I, I think that writing about this stuff is sort of hard for me because you know, most of my family, a lot of people that I really love are still evangelical. And I do have like a certain amount of respect for the religion that I was raised in, not when it's manipulated to benefit the patriarchy and not when it's manipulated for different political ends to disempower groups of people, but you know, sort of the core tenants of Christianity I have respect for. So I always want to be careful and not, not be sort of lumping together. All people who have these religious beliefs, because I do know a lot of Christians who are incredible and who do really amazing activism and who like put their money where their mouth is, but yeah, like purity culture in and of itself, it's not redeemable. Like there is no part of it that we can take and be like, “this is fine. And this is in service of a higher power.” Like none of it is okay. It's all really screwed up.

Jennie: Yeah. As the saying goes, “attack the systems, not the people.”

Becca: Yes, indeed.

Jennie: Okay. So the last question we usually ask people I know is also probably a little outside of your bag, but we're going to ask anyway, cause I always like to end with actions. So what can our audience do around these issues? So, you know, you talked about ending purity culture. Is there anything that our audience can do?

Becca: I mean, I think the best thing that people can do is educate themselves and read about this stuff. Emily Joy Allison who's quoted in the piece, she is the co-founder of the #ChurchToo movement, follow her on Twitter. Like she's just the smartest person that I've ever met about purity culture. She really thinks deeply about this stuff, she's been through it. She she's just been an incredible resource. She's also written a book about the #ChurchToo movement that's very good. And I highly recommend it. I think in the end, so much of it is about empathy. And I know that sounds really like cheesy, but I often find myself thinking like, it's just, if people could just emphasize with folks who are different from them and who have different beliefs from them and different ways of living then that was sort of solve a lot of the problems. Right? Like, I don't know. I feel like since publishing the story, I've gotten a lot of stuff in my Twitter mentions about like, just like really stuff about evangelicalism and where it's like, okay, but you're not trying to understand the systems. You're not trying to understand the people caught in them. You're just criticizing somebody that, you know, understands and that's not really engaging with the problem in good faith. So I think, I think it's really important to do a lot of listening and a lot of reading if you're not from these communities and not swoop in with your idea of like what should be done to fix the system.

Jennie: Yeah. And I like how you started with, you know, there's some people who are already doing this good work within the system and trying to change it. So it's good to support them.

Becca: Yeah. Absolutely. Linda K. Klein also has a book about purity culture and has done a lot of amazing speaking about it. I think there are a lot of folks out there who are doing incredible work and not even just around purity culture, but also around like broader inclusion within the church who are fighting for equal rights for LGBTQ plus folks and within the church. And I think that all of that is really powerful and important.

Jennie: For sure. Well, everybody, please make sure it's read Becca's piece in Mother Jones, we’ll have links to it in our show notes. It's a little long, but it's really good!

Becca: It's super long!

Jennie: But there's a lot there. And it was a really good read. It took me a long time cause I was taking notes...it’s long, but it's not that long.

Becca: It moves fast.

Jennie: It moves fast. And I think the most shocking thing, I mean, not most shocking, but to me being from Southern Wisconsin is I had no idea that Moody was in Chicago.

Becca: I still can't believe that. I know it's right downtown too. It's weird. Tucked into downtown. It's bizarre.

Jennie: I had no idea. No idea. So weird. Anyhow, the more you know, right? Well, Becca, thank you so much for being here and I can't wait to have you again when you're finished with your book.

Becca: Hey, thanks. I'm really excited. And thank you so much for having me. This was such a pleasure.

Jennie: Okay. Everybody. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Becca. I had so much fun talking to her and I can't wait to have her on again to talk about her book when it's finished. Make sure to go check out her piece. Y'all it actually it's really good. I was so excited to read it. I took so many notes and I was so excited to have this conversation with her. So I hope y'all enjoyed it as much as I did.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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