The Current Anti-Abortion Extremist Agenda

Anti-abortion extremists are hard at work attacking access through the courts, policy, clinic harassment, and more. Simultaneously, the Trump administration’s chaos—including RFK Jr.’s harmful actions as head of HHS—are continuing to disassemble comprehensive sexual and reproductive health and rights, brick-by-brick. Mini Timmaraju, President and CEO of Reproductive Freedom for All, sits down to talk with us about how anti-abortion extremists are endlessly and strategically beelining for abortion and contraception.

One focus of attack centers on mifepristone, the first of two medications taken during a medication abortion. It is extremely safe and has been available on the market for 25 years. Yet, Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine v. FDA out of Texas saw anti-abortion advocates arguing against mifepristone (despite FDA approval of hundreds of studies proving its safety). It was headed by anti-reproductive health and rights judge Matthew Kacsmaryk, who has now sent the case to Missouri. Judge Kacsmaryk has referenced the Comstock Act, which would ban the mailing of abortion pills.

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Hi, rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So, I've been keeping a little secret from y'all. The last couple weeks, while you have heard episodes, I have been off in Italy on vacation, and I'm technically still on vacation, but if you're hearing this when it comes out, I am flying back today. But since I will be home, I feel okay saying that I have been gone. I am really looking forward to this trip. I've never been to Italy, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing all the sights and eating all of the delicious food and drinking the wine and just having a great time. I'm going with two of my cousins and one of my aunts, and I am just really excited to step away from all of the things that are happening here and just take some time to have fun and not think about any of it, hopefully. So, I will tell you more about my vacation probably next week after I have actually been back and I'm recording. So that explains if anything happened the last couple weeks that I didn't talk about. That would be why, because I have not been around.

But something happened today as I'm recording this that I did want to talk about, and that is the passing of Jane Goodall. I was very much of the young cohort of young girls who really grew up looking up to her. And, you know, I was really into animals and science. And so she was just somebody that I was really one of my heroes when I was young. And I followed her work growing up and through the years, read multiple of her books, and followed what she was working on at the time, whether it was working with chimps or broader environment things, or she had done work on education as well. So, I really followed her over the years, and she has led such an amazing life. And I really enjoyed learning more about her as I grew up. And like I said, she was just such a hero of mine. So, this one is hitting a little close to home. I was lucky enough to see her speak a couple times and got to meet her one time when she was speaking at the Capitol, and it just meant a lot to get to meet her in person and just to get to see her, you know. As I said, lots of hero worship. I had a colleague at the time, Emily, who really pushed me to get my picture taken with her because that was not something I would have ever decided to do, and I'm really grateful she did because I have this great picture of me and Jane Goodall. And so, I just this is one of those passings that really is close to home because she was just always there in the background. I can't remember a time when I didn't know who she was and the work she was doing. I feel like I get a lot of kids' books from my friends that there's like a book called Meet Jane, I think it's called, that I've gotten for lots of kids. That is like a little kid's book about Jane Goodall. So yeah, she just did such amazing work and is very sorely going to be missed. I think those are all of the big things I want to talk about. I mean, I don't know what's gonna happen between when I'm recording this and when you'll hear it, but I am very much looking forward to my vacation, and I will tell you all about it when I get back. I'm looking forward to doing some fun reading and just having time away from all of the things that are happening. But one of those things that is happening is this tough subject of today's episode.

There have been lots of attacks on mifepristone lately, from attacks in the court system through the FDA reviewing the safety of it. So, we are going to talk about what is going on with mifepristone today. And with me, I couldn't think of a better person to have than Mini Timmaraju with Reproductive Freedom for All to talk to us about what is happening. So, let's go to my interview with Mini.

Jennie: Hi Mini. Thank you so much for being here today.

Mini: Thanks for having me, Jennie. It's so nice to meet you.

Jennie: I'm so excited to have you on. Before we dig into everything, do you want to take a second and introduce yourself?

Mini: That sounds great. My name is Mini Timmaraju, and I am the President and CEO of Reproductive Freedom for All, the organization formerly known as NARAL Pro Choice America. We're about a 55-year-old organization with four million members across all 50 states. And I’ve been in this job coming up on my four years, my four-year anniversary soon. Wow, I cannot believe it has been four years already. Yeah, it's been like having like a wild four years, though, right? Yeah, but I have small children, and folks say the days are long and the years are short. Yeah, that's how I feel about this job.

Jennie: No, that feels exactly right.

Mini: Like, it went by like that. Actually, my first day on the job was just a couple of weeks before the oral arguments in the Dobbs case at the Supreme Court. So, that's sort of been the whole trajectory of my experience being back in the movement—has been very, you know, pre-Dobbs, post-Dobbs defined. And one of the motivating factors for me to come back was knowing that Dobbs was on the horizon.

Jennie: Yeah, I mean, what a baptism by fire, right? Like, just jump right into the deep end.

Mini: You know what? May as well do it the hard way.

Jennie: So, I am excited to talk to you today about what is going on with mifepristone, but maybe just if people aren't as familiar, maybe we'll just take a quick step back and like when we talk about mifepristone, what are we talking about?

Mini: Yeah, we're talking about medication abortion. Mifepristone is one part of a two-pill medication abortion protocol. And it's really become something that more and more Americans know about thanks to the extreme anti-abortion movement's demonization of mifepristone, right? It's been safe and on the market for over 20, maybe almost 25 years. I should know this. Yes, didn't we just have a 25? Yes, it just happened. Thank you. I'm just gonna caveat and say I am post-menopausal, and that is relevant to reproductive rights and freedom. So, sometimes I get a little bit of brain fog, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I'm gonna talk, and that's a future topic maybe that you and I can have in one day because I'm an expert. So, 25 years, of course we know that because I spent the whole weekend doing press on it. 25 years of mifepristone on the market. That means, as many of your listeners understand, FDA approval, extensive review, extensive studies, market research in real time on the market for 25 years. But medication abortion has become, you know, the largest accounts for the majority of abortions in this country. And that's been, as a result, the reason for a massive target on its back by opponents of abortion who um understand that, you know, despite the Dobbs decision and bans and restrictions in 21 states, abortion rates have gone up because of telemedicine and medication abortion. And mifepristone is critical to that. It's also critical to miscarriage management, it's also critical for other types of health care and the reproductive health care space, but it's the abortion care that's really got our opponents riled up and it's put it at risk. And because it accounts for the most abortions in this country, it's dangerous that it's under this type of attack.

Jennie: I feel like we've seen it under attack in a couple different ways.

Mini: Yeah.

Jennie: Let's start maybe with the courts. I know that it feels like I could go any number of ways here, but I think the court one is the one we've talked about a little bit on the podcast so far. So, what are we seeing…

Mini: Probably the more realistic, the one of the many options that's most likely.

Jennie: Okay, so how are we seeing it attacked in courts?

Mini: Well, it's so interesting, right? Because it was in, it's in court right now in Texas. Famously, Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk, a case that was brought to his court last year, went all the way to the Supreme Court, Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine v. FDA. Matthew Kacsmaryk is famously one of the most extreme judges on so many issues beyond abortion rights. He's in Texas, and there's a lot of forum shopping. A lot of folks have filed cases in his court because they know he's an extremist and he's a one judge court, and it's been a way for them to push through some really extreme, crazy laws. That case got kicked down by the Supreme Court based on standing. The group, Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine, was basically a group of, I like to call them just a group of crackpots, you know. There wasn't an abortion provider among them. It was like a dentist, right? There were dentists?

Jennie: A dentist. But that's who I go to about my abortion care or post-abortion care.

Mini: And so, of course, the Supreme Court, despite its own like capture by extremists, could have to say, look, look, you don't have standing. None of you have actually been harmed by the availability of medication abortion and don't have standing to go after the FDA. So, fast forward, we are now back in Kacsmaryk's court, in multiple states. Now it's Missouri v. FDA, and why would that be in Texas? But in a startling move of common-sense last night, Matthew Kacsmaryk, I'm gonna get this wrong because I am not a practicing attorney but basically made a motion to move this whole thing to Missouri where it should be.

Jennie: Oh, I missed that.

Mini: Yeah, that happened late last night— or late in the day last night is when we got word of it— to move the whole dang thing to Missouri and say that makes more sense, not my court, but it will allow for an equally pretty disastrous court that's got a majority of right-wing extremists on its court and in a circuit that's also very, very conservative. So, it's not so much better than Texas to the Fifth Circuit to the Supreme Court, but it does, it is fascinating that we I haven't seen a full analysis of why folks think he washed his hands of it and threw it over to Missouri, except our organization also works on judicial nominees, and two of the most extreme Josh Hawley nominees are gonna be on that court. And some of them have deep ties to this case and this issue. I don't know that they'll be on court in time. They are still in the process of being confirmed, but they will eventually get confirmed, and this case will eventually be in that court, and they will eventually be on that court. So, this is all to say that you cannot disconnect the conversation around medication abortion, mifepristone from the courts, from the congressional process with digital nominations, and how smart and effective the antis have been at really infiltrating and capturing the court and creating these bogus organizations like Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine in part to specifically file these cases. But now, in collusion with Republican Attorneys General from these red states with bans, they've gotten smart. They've realized their strategy didn't work. I'm assuming Kacsmaryk realized, you know, the standing issue would come back up again with Missouri intervening in his court and he's just gonna make it cleaner, and they're gonna make sure they're in a state where there was actually, in their mind, harm. But the last thing I'll say is Missouri is the state that just codified a right to abortion through a ballot measure and still has a Republican extremist trifecta. So, we're not able to actually do what the voters asked them to do, which is make abortion legal. So, all of this being in Missouri, I think has really particularly interesting political ramifications that we should be watching really closely. You got Josh Hawley, you got these judges, you got this court basically poised to do exactly the opposite of what voters in their state said they should do, which is protect abortion care. That was a lot. That was a very long run-on sentence. Sorry, Jennie.

Jennie: No, that was all really good. And it actually just made me think that wow, I haven't done an episode focusing on just like the courts in a while. We did a number of those a couple of years ago, but it's been a while. I wonder why a couple of years ago you did that. What happened? Yeah. Well, not what changed. Yeah, it is working its way through the court system, and unfortunately, that's not the only place we're seeing it. It's now coming up with the FDA and looking at using the I mean, you can't even call it a study, the pseudo-science fake paper thing. And if people want to know more about what is wrong with that, we have an episode on it.

Mini: Words on paper that they're calling a study. Yes.

Jennie: Yes. To try and challenge its FDA approval. Do you want to talk a little bit about that process and where we are right now?

Mini: Yeah, just recently in the last few weeks, Secretary of Health and Human Services RFK Jr., a sentence that I cannot like. I think if I flashed, if like if we time traveled and the old me heard those words coming out of my mouth, they'd be like, What the hell are you talking about? Yeah. If possible, the least qualified secretary of HHS in human history, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., actually did what we expected him to do all along, which was in response to Republican Attorneys General. Also, again, this is important through lines to Republican AGs, who basically sent a letter to FDA, to the Senate, you know, to RFK saying, hey, you know, we want you to revisit mifepristone. We have this “study”; I'm doing air quotes for listeners. We have the “study” that says there's been harm, and we want it's the same kind of study that's been used in these court cases. So, it's honestly one strategy, just different tactics, really, which is to invalidate the safety of mifepristone and say it needs further review. This is for a couple of reasons. One, you know, we know during the COVID pandemic, in part due to the Biden administration's review, FDA under the Biden administration, that they made mifepristone available in brick and mortar pharmacies and by mail and through telemed, in part to respond to overall, you know, shifting of access to care for so many things to telemed and mail. And it was after 20, almost 20 years of evidence of safety. And this is important because now that we're in this moment with post-Dobbs where we have folks in states with bans who need access to care through the mail and telemed, it's more critical than ever that this is allowed to be prescribed this way, right? And provided this way. So, what the FDA is doing is they're saying they're gonna review, they're gonna review that policy shift, right? The REMS [Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategy] is what they're called. And they're going to also review whether or not the whole authorization of the FDA could be reversed. Now, that is if I were to place bets, I'd say that's down the line that the quickest, fastest thing they could do would be to reverse those COVID-era rules because that's low-hanging fruit, right? They don't need a lot. The FDA process is cumbersome, but they could reverse that pretty quickly. It will take a lot longer, just because of their own internal processes, to actually revoke authorization of mifepristone entirely. And I think it would provoke a kind of political backlash that they are not interested in. You've got this interesting political dynamic where Donald Trump has been out there saying he's not gonna mess with mifepristone. You even had Marty Makary, the FDA commissioner, on MSNBC saying he wasn't going to change this. But they're not, nobody's directly commenting on this situation about telemed going through the mail, etc. The movement folks who work in politics raise the alarm around it because it's a little bit in the weeds, right? Oh, you're not banning it. You're just, it's about safety. You know, things in the mail, they can be scary. Maybe it's fraud. They could create a lot of noise around it that would make it harder for us to politically fight back. So that's why I think it's probably the most likely of the scenarios, but it's not as likely as the courts. The courts are still a faster way for them to do this. FDA authorization opens up a ton of can of worms. When this went to the Supreme Court, we saw business, pharma finally, after a really long time weighing in and saying, if you start politicizing, you know, authorization and review of medicines, like, we're never gonna get out of this hellhole. You know, whether it's vaccines, whether it's medication abortion, don't go there. So, there's a significant business interest in not letting this happen through the FDA.

Jennie: I think it's also just really important to note that this is not a harmless move. Like, it may be hard to explain to some people, like you said, why getting rid of being able to mail or do telemed would be a problem. But it's huge, huge, huge.

Mini: It's huge because post-Dobbs, again, just to repeat, 21 states with bans and restrictions, folks are getting access to care. It's so huge that on the anniversary of Dobbs, the head of Susan B. Anthony list, Marjorie Dannenfelser, was on Fox News and she was getting grilled by Fox News reporters saying, why is abortion going up when you guys overturned Roe? And she was like, that's why we have to go after medication abortion on the record, out in the open. That's why we gotta have to go after shield laws. That's why we have to go after providers. That's why we have to go after medication abortion and telemed. And shield laws, I'm sure you guys have talked about, are the laws that protect these providers from providing care to patients from other states, amongst other things. So, they are highly aware that they are losing the war on abortion, even though they overturn the federal protection because people need abortion and they want abortion care and they're gonna get it. And we've now created enough of an ecosystem in this country where folks can get it. So, what do you do? You're gonna go after, you're gonna try to institute a backdoor abortion ban that would ban the most accessible way to access care in states that have protected abortion care, like California and New York. So, it's extremely dangerous. It would have devastating consequences and ripple effects and would effectively ban abortion in the majority of the country, including in states where we have legal protection for abortion.

Jennie: Yeah, and I think it's just so important to point that out because you may think you're okay in a state where abortion is protected, but if people are having to physically go to clinics to get access, that's gonna make it much harder to get access in your state, because people are having to travel to that state to get care where they were previously able to be mailed care via telemedicine. So, we cannot absorb all of those people into the system we currently have.

Mini: And there's time limitations, right? Every state is different. Medication abortion is often the fastest. You can do it early in pregnancy. You know, can you imagine the impact it would have on the clinics that have to do surgical abortion care? I mean, it would be- it's already debilitating. Over 50% of all abortions in this country are through medication abortion precisely for this reason. We do not have the infrastructure to take these, all these patients in through clinics. It is just not possible. Also, it's just a way for you to manage your own abortion in a dignified way where you control it. I mean, which has been life-changing for so many people who've needed this care. I mean, apparently, this FDA and this HHS has very little regard for pregnant people, has very little regard to spreading massive disinformation about vaccines, Tylenol, you name it, things that pregnant people and babies need. So, it's not shocking that this is the route that they would go, but it's also, again, I make the earlier point. It is horrible. It is harder to explain to voters. It is harder to break through. And we already had a challenge last year in breaking through to voters on this because Trump very effectively said, I'm gonna leave this to the states, but this is not leaving it to the states. This is a way, though, of baiting and switching the American people that you promised you weren't gonna mess with this. And that's what this administration is doing.

Jennie: Well, I also there's like a new crisis every, I mean, not even every day anymore. It's like every couple of hours. So, like trying to get people to keep track of things that are happening is so hard.

Mini: It's really hard right now to break through to anybody on any of this. We are an organizing organization, organizing first. What that means is, you know, we spend a tremendous amount of time training our volunteers and our members to talk to their friends, neighbors, community members, to reach out to the members of Congress, to go to the lobby in their state capitals. And we have a very loyal, committed base of repro activists, but even they will come to meetings and be like, “okay, but there's ICE on my street.” “My neighbor got kidnapped.” “I can't get my COVID vaccine.” In my neighborhood, in the DC suburbs, like, half of my neighborhood's been laid off. We are in a government shutdown currently. You know, there is so much chaos that even our own activists who cared the most about this are drowning in the devastation that this administration has wrought on our day-to-day lives, tariffs, you know, all of it. It's chaotic. So, what we've found is we just have to be relentless about how aggressive we are with spreading this information. And we have to create as many opportunities as possible for activism and accountability around them. So, there's no thing too small to shout out about this administration, whether it's medication abortion, the Tylenol stuff. But it's also about things like, you know, Costco declining to carry mifepristone. We're organizing our members who are Costco members. You've got to have as many touch points as possible when you're organizing so that you're continually keeping this in the dialogue because otherwise you're not breaking through. And we know there's gonna be some fatigue, but at the end of the day, we have to find as many ways as possible to get people to see how it's relevant to their day-to-day life. And that's the big challenge we're having in this moment.

Jennie: I thought one of the things that jumped out at me among all the horribleness with the Tylenol situation is how often do we use the talking point of, like, mifepristone is the safest Tylenol. That is one of the first things that jumped out at me.

Mini: So literally— and Jessica Valenti, I think, did a whole piece on this, it was so good— but literally as soon as it happened, three people in my office were like, well, that's because I mean, it can't be because we've been saying safer than Tylenol. It's like it's been a hundred percent part of it. I'm sure, I mean, why would they go after Tylenol and not just say versus acetaminophen, right? Besides the fact that President Trump can't say it. There was that. But why specifically Tylenol and not like all the other drugs that also have elements of acetaminophen in them, acetaminophen plus, you know, there's so many medications. So, it was pretty wild. And I do think that it shows that while a conventional Republican administration would not pick a fight with a major pharmaceutical company and a brand, this administration doesn't give a shit. Can I say that on your show?

Jennie: That's fine.

Mini: Doesn't give a shit. They don't, they are in relentless pursuit of distraction, and I think that is a classic RFK, like, crazyism. Like, oh, see, the benefit is bad for pregnant women. Like, is it? We have no data, but you've got an HHS that has pretty much eliminated the majority of their evidence-based scientists and researchers, so he can go out and make statements like that definitively as the head of HHS. So, the Tylenol thing is important because look, it's terrifying and it's a way to connect to average Americans who aren't always thinking about abortion and say "they don't care about pregnant people." Connect that. We gotta keep connecting it back. They don't care about you; they don't care about the people in your life who could be pregnant. They have so little regard for people who have autism that they're actually trying to make this a scare tactic to scare pregnant women from taking this medication for alleviation of minor symptoms, right? They want to guilt moms who have kids with autism. I mean, and all of those arguments are sticking in a way that just talking about mife does not stick. So, we have to do all of it, but we've got to find ways to connect the dots.

Another thing that we've done recently that was a little on the edge, but we tested it and it worked, was talking about the Epstein files and talking about Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and connecting the dots between that, Pete Hegseth's crazy stuff about women and not being able to vote and the right, the through line, and then the Trump administration's actions with the VA on abortion care. And it tested because it tested well because voters are like, oh, we've got to spell it out for them. This is a guy who's besties with a serial predator himself, is likely a serial predator, let's be clear. Then he's got all these like lunatics who are misogynists in his administration, and this is the kind of crazy stuff they do to you and to people you love and respect, veterans who need abortion care. That it's all part of a larger plan. And that was the ad. It's all part of a larger plan. And we're testing that ad in these congressional districts where we have, you know, folks who we have to hold accountable and put pressure on, and we've got to raise the temperature for them on repro. So, we're in this chaos environment. We're trying to find the things that are popping with the public and then connecting it back to repro.

Jennie: Yeah, that all makes me think of the- as we are recording this, the speech by Pete Hegseth that was going after what women in service talking about getting rid of like anonymous reporting, which is how a lot of sexual assault victims were reporting. You could just see that through line continuing.

Mini: Yeah, in addition to making incredibly deeply, you know, ableist and you know, phobic or fatphobic comments about generals and military, it was the wildest thing to me. It was like, I appreciate that you're lifting up that one piece because I think he got buried in all the other crazy lunatic things he said. But look, it's very clear to me that Pete Hegseth being there is not an accident. And that, you know, I actually had a very smart reporter say to me this morning, Donald Trump doesn't really care about abortion. I'm like, he may not, but he's a misogynist. He may not, but he's sexist. He may not, but he definitely hates women. So, we got to get away from the, well, you know, he probably paid for a few abortions in his day and he doesn't care about abortion, but he doesn't care about you. He doesn't care about you. It's not even about: does he specifically care about abortion? He doesn't care about us. Or puts people in place who do. Yes, and that's not an accident, that's a reflection on him. Because what we found in our exit groups and our exit polling and our focus groups post the election was that a lot of people were like, well, you know, I'm gonna give Trump a pass. I'm not gonna give these members of Congress a pass. I'm not gonna give these, you know, I'm gonna vote for these ballot measures. So for example, we have a very big chapter in Arizona. We spent millions of dollars in Arizona on the ballot measure, on the Senate race, and on the presidential. We have folks who definitely voted for the ballot measure. They voted for Ruben Gallego, and then they voted for Donald Trump. So, like, what the hell happened? So, we did focus groups in states where we saw those dynamics. And the number one thing we heard was I didn't know necessarily about how bad things were with abortion in my state. I thought in the ballot measure states, I'm voting for the ballot measure to protect myself. In the non-ballot measure states, it was like I didn't think it was that bad. Because, you know, folks don't think about it necessarily unless there's an active crisis in their face, right? Until you need to. Or a multi-million-dollar campaign educating them about it, which was happening in the ballot measure states. And they believed two things about Donald Trump. They believed he meant it when he said leave it to the states, and they believed he didn't really care about it. There's a couple of lessons from that. We've got to penetrate the information gap, the voter education gap. We have to point out that whatever Donald Trump says, the Republican Party is not leaving it to the states through all of these different mechanisms we're talking about, FDA, the courts, etc. And then we have to point out that Donald Trump himself actually hates women. And we got to keep reminding Americans of that. I think they intellectually know it, but emotionally it doesn't stick because Trump is a once-in-a-lifetime type of leader for them. And he encapsulates, it's hard for us to stomach or believe, but he encapsulates a lot of hopes and dreams of a very disaffected, marginalized group of Republican voters who have captured that party, and it means something to them. But when they see things like Jeffrey Epstein, the fact that that Jeffrey Epstein thing was the first thing to crack the MAGA base was like, I was like, we gotta go there. We've got to weaponize that thing because that helps us explain that he hates you, and he hates the people you love. And that was so we're gonna be doing a lot more there because I don't know why that's the thing that broke them. I mean, I have theories, and we could talk more about that, but it is the thing. They love a good conspiracy, and it is the thing that they believed, and now they see they're close to seeing the reality, and um, it's an opportunity for us.

Jennie: I could continue to talk to you forever. I've had so much fun talking to you, but maybe we'll just wrap it up with my favorite ending question, which is how can the audience get involved? What can the audience do in this moment?

Mini: Thank you for asking me that. So, you know, we are a multi-platform organization. We do a lot of good work that's just voter education, just educating your friends, family, and neighbors. We have a really strong digital organizing program. You don't even have to leave your house. Are you on social media a lot? Do you love to shit post? Do you love to share funny memes? These are all ways. What we've learned the hard way is that more Americans are getting their information on TikTok and through social than they are watching MSNBC, listening to smart podcasts. And we have to get to your circle of friends and family who do not pay attention. And the best way for us to do it is through innovative, interesting, funny content that breaks down what's really happening. So, we've been building that platform and that vertical in this organization. And we invite anyone who wants to join us to text "REPRO" at 59791 and join our text team, join our, you know, digital team, join our, you know, digital activist team where you're just getting content pushed to you for you to share. And then you can take tons of actions from your home while you are watching your favorite show, while you are out to dinner. It's easy. You're always looking at your phone anyway. We're gonna take advantage of it. If there's other ways you want to be involved in the movement, there's so much good work happening across the movement. You know, get involved with an abortion fund, you know, support independent providers. But also, if you just want to stick it to the man, like we're a good place to start. And we uh we do that a lot. And part of the reason why, even though it's really stressful right now to be in this work, I really love it, is despite all the hits, we're actually winning more than we're losing. More Americans are still getting their care than anyone expected. We're winning these ballot measures. Abortion as an issue is more popular than any candidate, Democratic or Republican. Our brand, abortion and repro, is more popular than any mainstream brand uh in the political world. So, we're winning. We got to remember that and join the fight. Join us.

Jennie: Mini, thank you so much for being here today. I had so much fun talking to you.

Mini: Thank you, Jennie. I really appreciate you having me.

Jennie: Okay, y'all. I had such a great conversation with Mini. I really enjoyed talking to her. I hope you enjoyed our conversation. And I will see all of you next week.

[music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media. We're at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all.