Trans Rights Are Human Rights! #ProtectTransHealth


Since the day President Trump took office, there have been countless attacks on the health, rights, and well-being of transgender people. Katelyn Burns, a freelance journalist covering LGBTQ and reproductive health issues and the first openly transgender reporter on Capitol Hill joins us to talk about all of the ways in which the current administration has undermined the health and rights of transgender individuals.

Attacks on the transgender community haven’t been totally centered in the health-sphere. In fact, the attack on trans rights that has been most widely discussed is the military ban (this is the only anti-transgender policy that Trump has tweeted about, which may explain the disproportionate level of interest as compared to other, even more devastating anti-transgender policies that particularly impact people of color). The administration also passed a rule that would force homeless shelters that receive federal funding to deny shelter for homeless trans individuals, and instead house them in a shelter aligned with their birth-sex. Attacks have also focused on transgender students, employment protections, and much more.

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) has been no stranger to limiting, restricting, and blatantly attacking the health and rights of the transgender community. One rule under this administration’s HHS allows anyone who has a religious objection to reproductive health and LGBTQ+ health (abortion care, birth control, Plan B, hormone replacement therapy, top and bottom surgery), and another proposed rule allows providers to totally refuse care to transgender individuals just because of who they are.

Photo by Sharon McCutcheon on Unsplash


Jennie Wetter: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back a podcast on all things repro. I'm your host Jenny Wetter. In each episode, I'll be taking you to the front lines of the escalating fight over our sexual and reproductive health and rights at home and abroad. Each episode, I will be speaking with leaders who are fighting to protect our reproductive health and rights to ensure that no one's reproductive health depends on where they live. It's time for repros to fight back.

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Jennie Wetter: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back. On this week's episode we're going to talk about the many attacks by the Trump/Pence administration on the transgender community. Helping me dig into this topic, I'm really excited to have with me Katelyn Burns, a freelance journalists covering LGBTQ and reproductive health issues and the first openly Trans Capitol Hill reporter here today to talk to me. Hi Kaitlin.

Katelyn Burns: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Jennie Wetter: Thank you so much for doing this. I'm so excited to finally be talking about trans issues on the podcast.

Katelyn Burns: Yeah, it's fantastic.

Jennie Wetter: We're going to do a deep dive into the health care stuff, but unfortunately that is definitely not the only area that the Trump and Pence administration has been going after. So I figured we'd do kind of a bit of a rapid fire-ish, talk of some of the many other areas that they have, um, gone after the Trans Community, and we'll start with the military ban.

Katelyn Burns: Yeah. So the, the military ban is sort of the headline. I have my own theories as to why this seems to be getting the most attention. Um, I think it, uh, most directly affects the white trans community. So I feel like that gets disproportionate attention within the LGBT advocacy orgs that, that do the work. Um, but also it's the only policy, the only anti-trans policy, that Trump has actually tweeted about. That's true. Um, and I wrote about this recently, but I think that there are too many like mainstream media reporters who take their story cues, um, directly from Trump's Twitter feed. Um, and they're not necessarily doing like a deeper policy dive into some of these things. And I think this is why that, you know, the military ban gets so much attention, but, um, it's not nearly the only attack on the trans community nor the most devastating. There's, you know, countless other areas where they're actively making life more difficult for particularly trans people of color.

Jennie Wetter: I was really surprised. And so as someone who absolutely tries to stay on top of these things, I went to, um, the National Center for Trans Equality and was looking at, they have like a list of all the things and I think it was like five pages printed out and it was shocking to me. Even with the many I knew about, there were a lot that I just wasn't as familiar with. And since, one, we don't have like 20 hours to talk about all of them, I'll make sure to include that resource in the show notes. But yeah, it's just kind of boggles my mind.

Katelyn Burns: Yeah, I mean, there's a couple that are particularly devastating. Um, the health care one I think is the most devastating of all, but, um, within the same week that that policy was announced or that proposed rule was announced, um, they also announced a proposed rule that would allow homeless shelters that receive federal funding to just straight up not house trans people at all, or forced trans people to be housed with their birth sex. So like if I ended up homeless, they could force me into a men's shelter, even though, you know, I haven't lived as a man for years. I've, you know, I've, not to get too personal, but I have female genitalia at this point, but at this point, like with this proposed rule, as they're making it sound, it's going to be none of that matters. And somebody can just force their own interpretation of, of your life on somebody. And we're not talking about the average trans person. We're talking about somebody who literally has nothing and nowhere else to go. So it's either live in the street or live in the shelters where they're being sexually assaulted or just straight up beaten for who they are. Sorry, I'm gonna cry.

Jennie Wetter: It's devastating and not only on its face, but also because the transgender community is disproportionately a part of the homeless community and it's just such a cruel and senseless attack. Yeah, that one really got me. And I also feel like, again, yes, the religious refuse rule definitely overshadowed it. And I feel like a lot of people, I didn't see a ton of conversation other than in like the usual suspects community that you would expect to hear on Twitter or whatever talking about it. Like I really feel like that um, the homeless shelter, uh, rule was really going unnoticed.

Katelyn Burns: Yeah, I would agree with that. Um, we haven't seen the actual text of the rule yet, so I'm hoping that when that gets rolled out there's a little bit more attention. Um, you know, I will certainly be looking to, to write about it, you know, if there are any editors that listened to your show,

Jennie Wetter: Yes. We'll make sure. And it's really, it is just like such an attack on the community because even when you look at it, it's simple things like there was like the big thing again, time is a flat circle under the Trump administration and I have no concept of time but I think it was two years ago, where the CDC had this list of banned words and was one like if we don't say it then they don't exist, like it just again it was my mind that,

Katelyn Burns: I mean that's been the central policy of the this administration from day one. I mean they rolled back one of the like literally the first thing they did after reinstituting, the global gag rule was they rolled back the Obama era guidelines for trans students. It wasn't even guidelines, It was just like a suggested guidance for what schools should be doing with trans students and they literally just wiped it out in the first week and it, it's, it was a signal of what was to come and honestly I wasn't surprised in the least and it's just continued from there. So it just gets worse and worse. We have a case in front of the Supreme Court now, um, to determine whether, um, gender identities included under section or, um, title seven employment law. And that's actually important not just to trans people, but it should be important to cisgender women as well because the case that sort of undergirds... Okay, so let's back up a little bit and set the legal band. Um, there've been, uh, gosh, dozens of, of court rulings over the years determining that trans people are covered or under title seven because surprise, we also have a sex and we have sex-based rights. Yeah. Trans people are not sexless no matter what anybody else tries to say. Right. But the case that sort of undergirded the employment rules was, um, Hopkins v Waterhouse, um, which is a, a very famous case where there was a cisgender lesbian, you know, butch lesbian who, you know, wore a pantsuit to work everyday, did not wear makeup, wore her hair short, like did not like spoke gruffly they think they said in the case, and the people at Waterhouse, which is a financial firm or an accounting firm just straight up refused to promote her because she wasn't wearing dresses or skirts or wearing makeup or conforming to what their ideals of womanhood was. And so that case is sort of undergirded these further rulings on whether or not trans people should be included under employment protections. And that's the precedent that would be overruled if the Supreme Court rules against Trans People. So I hope that people realize that it's not just trans people that they're coming for, they're hoping to put trans people out of your mind and women back in their place. I don't think people are scared enough about this possible decision. I think too often we separate out these cases or these issues into these silos and not realize that they're all interconnected. Um, and that includes, you know, trans healthcare. Um, I consider to be reproductive healthcare,

Jennie Wetter: Or just health care, right? Like we'll get into this more later. But like,

Katelyn Burns: I know we're headed in that direction.

Jennie Wetter: When people think of it they think that like, it means your doctor isn't forced to do like gender reassignment surgery and like, no, it's like your doctor isn't required to treat your book broken bone because you're trans and that is bananas.

Katelyn Burns: I'm not showing up at the local Catholic emergency room for like vaginal plasty. Like nobody does that. Like it's specialist care to the max, right? It's just, you don't show up to an emergency room looking for like, like a getting a prosthetic leg. Right? So you go to a specialist for that stuff, right? So I don't really buy this, you know, they're trying to force doctors to perform these things that they don't approve of... To a point, right? Because like the, the Catholic Church has made this argument that gender reassignment surgery is, um, sterilizing, which is against their religion. So here again, we're connecting the two, right, right. Um, they, but they consider like just, um, hormone replacement therapy to be sterilizing, which it isn't always, in fact more and more research is showing that it's reversible for reproduction anyway. Not to get too in the weeds with it, but like, uh, they're claiming that uh, like, um, top surgery for trans men is sterilizing but it's not right. That's just come on...

Jennie Wetter: And again, I feel like someone needs to send them a general like how reproduction works. Right.

Katelyn Burns: And it's like we have formula. Like this isn't, you know, religious people like religious organizations particularly, I shouldn't say religious people cause they're not all like that. But the the, the conservative wing of these religious organizations, you know, will stretch anything to it to get their way.

Jennie Wetter: That is one episode we have not done. So we've done things on religious refusals. I had a conversation with someone about faith and reproductive rights, but we haven't done anything specifically on Catholic hospitals, which don't worry, it's coming. It is in my sights because there are any number of services that people don't know they're not getting when they go to a Catholic affiliated hospital. So also there was a justice department ruling allowing federal agencies, contractors, grantees to discriminate based on religious reasons, which again seems very targeted at the Trans community. Just so we're getting back to that laundry list and then we'll go straight into healthcare.

Katelyn Burns: Yeah, they, they basically rolled back, it wasn't just trans people, it was LGBT people. So Obama had issued an executive order, the, that bannedd, you know, federal agencies and contractors from discriminating on the basis of sexual or gender identity. And Trump came in and just basically like wiped that out. So basically any federal contractor now can just say, nope, we're not having, you know, those people work for us anymore. All of a sudden we're back in the 80s.

Jennie Wetter: There's so many things that just are completely foreign to me. Like I just can't understand that. Like there are people, they're just trying to work like...

Katelyn Burns: I mean I have friends here in DC who work for federal contractors and you know, if their boss leaves and the organization, hires a religious person, they're out of a job and it's just end of and they have no control over it. And it's just really not. It's not right.

Jennie Wetter: And again, I think that's one of those decisions that was like maybe a little bit of a flash in the pan when it happened, but never hear it talked about anymore and, or most people have kind of forgotten about it.

Katelyn Burns: And again, I think it's because we keep these issues too siloed and it's like, oh, this issue affects these people. And, and not realizing the connecting undercurrent of all of it. Um, which is something that I've tried to bring to my work is to to explain like, hey, there's connectedness to all of this.

Jennie Wetter: We're all in this together. Like they hate all of us.

Katelyn Burns: Yeah. This is why like transphobic feminists, I really don't understand not to go there.

Jennie Wetter: Like I didn't even really realize it was a thing because it's like

Katelyn Burns: You're not British. So...

Jennie Wetter: Right. And then I started hearing about turfs. I'm like, what is that? And I'm like, you can't be a radical feminist to be trans exclusionary. I'm sorry, like the, you know, that's not how this works. So many other things that could be their own topic.

Katelyn Burns: I mean, wouldn't it be amazing to work together to end male violence like anyway, so many we could spend an entire show just talking about this.

Jennie Wetter: Okay. Anyway, um, HHS, yes. So we've already kind of talked a little bit, but religious refusals, what are they?

Katelyn Burns: Just to take a step, a step back, right. So there's actually been two rules that have been introduced or um, proposed, right? One is religious refusals, which covers anybody who has religious objection to certain aspects of reproductive health, like abortion care or birth control or whether it's plan B is also being extended to cover like hormone replacement therapy or you know, top surgery, which again, I don't, I don't understand like bottom surgery, there's like 20 people in the entire country who do this and none of them are opposed to it based on religion. So like this is a nonstarter for me. There's another rule that's been introduced or proposed by HHS, which would basically allow any medical provider to just not treat trans people for anything. Right? So I've run into this myself as a trans person back when I lived in Maine, um, and I wrote about this recently for vox. I, it was like the second time I'd ever refilled my hormone prescription, I had just moved, you know, I just separated from my, from my then wife and I moved to a new town and I had a new pharmacy and I show up just to renew, you know, cause I, I'd gone, I had been going to a cvs and I was going to a new cvs and it should have been fine. Right? Um, the doctor or the pharmacist was like, yeah, we canceled that prescription. And I was like, excuse me? And they're like, well, sir, do you understand what this medication does? And I was like, yes, I do. I've been on it for awhile now. I think the doctor made a mistake because this is female hormones. And I was like, Yep, I'm aware. And like I had my kids in the back seat and they didn't know I was transitioning yet because I just hadn't gotten to... And um, I'm like hoping that they're distracted enough that they're not paying attention to what's actually being said. And I was just like, no, you know, I understand what this is like, this is a legitimate prescription. And the woman goes, well, we canceled it because we couldn't figure out why somebody with your name would be taking female hormones. And I'm just like, and that wasn't even like there was no religious basis to that refusal. It was just, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it right. And I, you know, it was humiliating. I ended up going to a different pharmacy and I got it filled, but I had to wait a few days. So I mean, on the whole, like it wasn't like a grievous injury to me other than the fact that it was completely humiliating and potentially outed me to my children. But I did tweet about it at the time and I didn't have nearly as many followers as I do now, but they sent me like a $30 gift card and I found out later that the pharmacist had been fired because she'd been doing this to a bunch of other people. But under this proposed rule, like that would just be fine. Like you don't even have to give a reason not to treat a trans person. You can just say no, I think they're icky and I don't want to touch their bodies. And again, right back to the 80s and, or the, you know, the aids crisis where doctors just refuse to, you know, treat, uh, gay men and Trans Women who were infected with aids. It's just, it enables bad actors within the health care industry. Um, you know, there is precedent for people dying because of these types of refusals. So, um, Robert Eads was a trans man, I think from Florida, but don't quote me on that. And he developed ovarian cancer and he went to like an oncologist to, to get a biopsy and then never heard back with the results.

Jennie Wetter: Yes, I have heard. Yes, yes.

Katelyn Burns: Never heard back with the results. Like figure it, oh, I not have had cancer, everything's fine. And I'm like, several months later somebody's like a, like an assistant within the practice called and was like, we just want to know how you're doing with your diagnosis. And he was like, what diagnosis? So he reached out to the oncologist to figure out what happened and, and the, the, the guy was like, well, when I saw your transgender status, honestly my first reaction was true for you to psychiatry, but I figured I just wouldn't get in touch with you at all. And he ended up dying because nobody would take care of his ovarian cancer. Right. So like these doctors basically can just refuse to treat life threatening situations. And there's actually a trans woman who lived not far from here where we're recording today, who, um, was in a car accident. The EMT responded and like, she had devastating internal injuries and he cut her clothes off and saw her penis and then refuse to touch her for the rest of the trip to the hospital. They get to the ER. The ER staff was sort of standoffish about treating her, didn't really take it seriously. She ended up dying in the hospital, not very far from here in DC. Yeah. Back in the 90s. And under this proposed rule that would be legal and what they did to Robert Eads would be legal as well. And it's just frankly terrifying honestly as a trans person.

Jennie Wetter: So I talked about this before on the podcast, but, so I'm from rural Wisconsin. Um, I went to undergrad at the University of Wisconsin and I um, had two roommates who were from a fairly conservative religion and both were going to go into medical related fields. And both at at certain points were talking about, well, you know, I would never treat a gay person or whatever. And just being like, that's not a thing. You can't do that. Like there are people, you treat people if you're going to be a pharmacist or whatever. And it just didn't make sense to me. Like that wasn't an option. Like I don't understand, you're going into healthcare, you treat people right, period. And come to find out, apparently this is something that medical professionals can choose to do, which it just boggled my mind. Why would you refuse to treat somebody it particularly in an emergency situation, but any time. Yeah, it makes me so angry.

Katelyn Burns: We talked before about how the media hasn't necessarily covered with us with a lot of depth and I don't think the media necessarily realizes that, that these scenarios are possible. Um, and I think they do the same thing on their covering reproductive health, especially when they just print these frankly moronic Republican lawmakers who are like, oh yeah, you can just, you know, transplant on top, an ectopic pregnancy. I'm just like, this isn't a thing.

Jennie Wetter: That was the wildest... well maybe not even the wildest cause there have been some pretty wild things like, well yeah they can just swallow a tiny camera and it can like check out the uterus or as them like those systems are not connected

Katelyn Burns: or the like Todd Aiken legitimate rate content. Yeah. Comments or is like at the end of the body has a way of shutting that down. And I'm like, no, no. It really doesn't.

Jennie Wetter: And I think, you know, some of it could be a little bit like, so I live in Washington DC okay, so this doctor isn't going to treat me. There's that doctor. There's options. It's not a big deal. Like so, okay, they're going to really execute their religious liberty or their bigotry. Okay. But that's not true for a lot of people. In a lot of places, there aren't other options. You know, if they live in a rural community, there might not be another care option, another pharmacy anywhere close. They might have to travel a long ways, you know, maybe the only provider in their like rural areas is a Planned Parenthood that's being targeted for other reasons. These things are all connected and all come back to we're all targets.

Katelyn Burns: Yeah. And like I had an eye opening experience myself recently because, um, I mentioned that I had surgery that was the end of last year, but I've since had to find an ob-gyn. And even around here, it's hard to find somebody who has treated a post-op trans vagina before. Um, I eventually did find an amazing one who I absolutely adore, but then I think of like Alabama where it's, what is it, 76 counties that don't even have an ob. It's just how is a trans woman who's had surgery down there supposed to get adequate care when there might not even be an ob in the state who is willing to treat them much less have experience with their body. It's just, and you see the same thing in rural places all over the country. I mean, like I read, I know somebody who lives in the upper peninsula in Michigan and there's not a single hormone provider in the entire UP for trans people. Like these are all deficiencies in the health arena. And then along comes this administration going, oh my God, it's this huge problem that trans people are asking for medical care. And I'm like, it's really not. It's the opposite problem. Like we don't have, like so much of the healthcare discourse has turned to affordability and here we are as trans people and repro professionals going, well, we still have access issues on our side of the dial. Like, we're, we're still 10 years behind you where we're actually just trying to get basic access to these things. And I think that those of us, like within the repro like sort of beat understand that that's happening, but I don't think people outside of us are even, you know, aware that you can't just show up at the hospital and demand, you know, bottom surgery. It's just like...

Jennie Wetter: So yeah, that's like absolutely one part of the lack of depth in the coverage, but the other part is the assuming being able to deny service to trans people is for trans care and not understanding that it's for care. Every care for everything they can turn you or the depth of people who can turn you away. Right? Like you talked about the ambulance situation, now it's ambulance, it's the schedule at the hospital could refuse to schedule an appointment. Like it's, anybody within the health care system can turn you away. And that's not what it's supposed to be. Yeah.

Katelyn Burns: Instead of, you know, these people going out and learning how to treat for, you know, trans people, they can be like, ah that's too much of a bother for me. I don't even want to bother with it in the first place. Right. Which we also see again when you talk about the fact that there aren't many medical schools that even teach how to perform an abortion. So again, parallels are happening all over the place.

Jennie Wetter: Even doctors who learned how to do at UDS.

Katelyn Burns: I mean I went to, I had to get a like, uh, when I first moved here I had to get a pre-op physical just to make sure I was in good enough health to like not die on the operating table. So I went to just an urgent care in the greater DC area and it was just a basic physical, it had nothing to do with trans care, but you have to list your medications and the guy's looking at, you know, I'm taking three medications for my transition. One's estrogen, one is a testosterone blocker. And then when was the DHT blocker for hair loss basically. And he's looking at this and he goes, are these the only things that you take for your gender transition? And I was like, yeah. He goes, Huh, you'd think it'd be some crazy drug concoction. Then? I'm like, no, it's just hormones buddy.

Jennie Wetter: I mean that's true. I think the, the veil of mystery for some people in even within the clearly the medical profession. Right?

Katelyn Burns: Yeah. It's just really frustrating. And I, you know, I can relate to these things as I've had these experiences and like I am an extremely privileged person within the trans community. So if I'm having these experiences, these are just rampant issues.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. And as someone who, you know, has reported on it and knows how to navigate the medical system. I mean, that's another complication and unrelated but also worth talking about is just the trans community being targets in general with so many black trans women who have been murdered. And every once in a while you'll see it come up. But not very often that, I mean there's, this community really needs our help in so many ways

Katelyn Burns: There've been two just in this area, one in the last couple of months. It's just scary. And then somebody a, so there's Casa Ruby on the other side of town, not far from here. Uh, there, this guy that showed up in the parking lot, like threatening people with a gun there. It's just, yeah. Yeah. It's just scary.

Jennie Wetter: It's just so important to show up and speak out. I've really, I have been meaning to do an episode on the Trans Community for so long and I'm just so happy to have finally done it for a while. It was a, everything's on fire under the Trump administration with repro, so everything else kept popping up. And finally I was just like, I need to make it happen. Like I don't care. It needs to happen now. And unfortunately there was the big impetus with the new rule and we talked about where kind of anybody can refuse for any reason. It is a proposed rule though, still, right?

Katelyn Burns: Yes. As far as I know. Yes.

Jennie Wetter: Yes. The religious refusals is now a rule, but

Katelyn Burns: yes, correct.

Jennie Wetter: But the other one, um,

Katelyn Burns: Comments are open. Yes. Protect Trans I believe is the website. You can go and submit a comment.

Jennie Wetter: So perfect. Yeah. What can listeners do to fight back? I always like to end all of these horribleness with a positive. So what can listeners do to fight back?

Katelyn Burns: Yeah, so actually before we get into individual listeners, I just want to give a shout out to so many repro organizations who are trans affirming and inclusive, Planned Parenthood and NARAL are both pretty trans inclusive. Every protest that's held, certainly NTC has folks from the National Women's law center. So I definitely want to give them a shout up because they're always showing up. And um, they had a representative who spoke at the House hearing for the Equality Act and she was like, I'm here because I'm with the National Women's law center and Trans Rights are women's rights. And just to, to hear that as a trans person and to know that there are these powerful organizations who are behind us is actually a comfort. You know, I know for me personally, but you know, when it comes to listeners, I think my first task would be try to show up at protests and I can't tell you how much the trans community will...So particularly here in DC, we'll go to protests and we'll look around and it's like 10 trans people and like three, six people and we're all yelling at the White House cause it's always on, you know, um, in Lafayette Park, uh, and I can't tell you how disheartening it is to see the same 15 faces. at protest after protest. So I would say in your local community, there are trans protests happening, you know, on behalf of the Trans Community. And I would encourage people to just show up and you don't necessarily have to know the right language. You know, you don't even have to necessarily be that vocal. Just having bodies there will still do so much to just calm the fears of your trans neighbors. But beyond that, you know, I would, I would say we have a desperate need for funding our healthcare needs. There's a great hashtag on Twitter. Um, and I want to make sure I get this right. So I'll me, let me take a minute to think about this. It's #TransCrowdFund. So if you go out on that Hashtag, you're going to see literally thousands of trans people just like, you know, with our go fund me's for transition care and whatnot. And I'm somebody who I, you know, basically financed all of my surgeries through go fund me as well. So this is incredibly common thing, but you know, giving money directly to trans people, particularly Black Trans women who are so often most effected by unemployment and lack of access to healthcare, um, is definitely like the easiest, most direct way to, to provide material support for trans people. But you know, beyond the financial side of things like go to and submit a comment and there's going to, they're going to roll out the proposal about the homeless shelters. And I think it'd be amazing to have, particularly cis women right in saying the shelter that I stay in if I need it, if I was homeless, should also include Trans women because I think that they are intentionally pitting cis women versus Trans Women, uh, in justifying this rule. And if we can get a couple of thousand comments from CIS women saying no, like they belonged with us, I think that will be really powerful. But I can't force anybody to do, to make a statement like that. So, you know, that would be my encouragement. Yeah. We just are, um, just generally scared about the state of the world right now

Jennie Wetter: And unfortunately that's scare is warranted. And so it's really up up to us cis woman, we need to step up and, um, we need to speak out and cismen too.

Katelyn Burns: Yes. You're not off the hook dudes

Jennie Wetter: Everybody. We all need to be there and be in a supporting role in an amplifying role, um, to make sure that everybody's voices are being heard and to show our support. Um,

Katelyn Burns: And I would say to the trans listeners that you have, or maybe people who listen, who are like my Twitter followers, um, who listen to this show, I say, I would say if you're trans, we need to show up for reproductive health for everybody. Um, but especially for abortion access because again, these issues are all connected. Um, and if you, if you follow me on Twitter, you've already heard me say this a thousand times anyway, but yeah, we all should be showing up for each other.

Jennie Wetter: Absolutely. Katelyn, thank you so much for doing this. This was fun!

Katelyn Burns: Thank you for having me. It was great. Jennie Wetter: We'll definitely have to have you on again.

Katelyn Burns: Definitely.

Jennie Wetter: For more information including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at rePROs Fight Back. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening!