Bonus Pod: The Co-Hosts of Outlawed on Their Abortion Access Podcast
The majority of people in the U.S. support abortion, yet access has been decimated around the country. That kind of disparity deserves evidence-based, practiced commentary, and we can think of no better doctors to share their experiences than Dr. Beverly Gray and Dr. Jonas Swartz, OBGYNs and co-hosts of the podcast Outlawed. They sit down to talk with us about being on the frontlines of abortion care in the U.S. at the moment and how their experience contributed to the desire to pursue their podcast.
Both Dr. Gray and Dr. Swartz dispel myths on mic and in person, including that childbirth is safer than abortion (abortion is less risky than carrying a pregnancy to term), that fertility is impacted by abortion (it isn’t), that abortions can be reversed (they can’t), or that abortion can occur after birth (they can’t). These myths can influence policy. In addition, Drs. Gray and Swartz interview incredible patients, providers, and advocates about their journeys in sexual and reproductive health. If you are interested in hearing information and stories from OBGYNs themselves, find Outlawed here.
Links from this episode
Outlawed
Outlawed on Instagram
Busting Myths About Abortion
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Take Action
Transcript
Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]
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Jennie: Hi rePROs. I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I am so excited to have a special bonus episode for you today. We did a special crossover episode with the Outlawed podcast. Today on our on repro fight Back, you can hear my conversation with Dr. Beverly Gray and Dr. Jonas Schwartz talking all about myths that they encounter around sexual and reproductive health. It's such a wonderful conversation. I had so much fun talking to them. And then when you are done listening to this podcast, you should go check out Outlawed and their interview with me talking about some of the things that are happening right now. We talk about EMTALA, we talk about the mife lawsuit, we talk about the 50-state report card. We talk about a whole host of things. So, once you are done listening to my interview with Beverly and Jonas, go check out their conversation with me on Outlawed. And with that, let's get to our interview. Hi, Dr. Gray. Hi, Dr. Schwartz. Thank you so much for being here today.
Bev: Hi, Jennie. We're so excited to be here.
Jonas: Hi, Jennie. Thanks for having us.
Jennie: So, before we get started, would you like to take a quick second and introduce yourselves and then we'll get going.
Bev: Yeah. So, I am Bev Gray. My pronouns are she/her, and I am an OBGYN in North Carolina. I have lived here pretty much my whole life and I live and work in Durham, North Carolina now. And Jonas and I started a podcast back in the fall called Outlawed and really diving into stories and science of abortion care and abortion access in the whole country, really. But we've talked about North Carolina and Virginia, but also talked to folks from all around. And it was a really great experience and we've learned a lot.
Jonas: And I'm Jonas Schwartz and my pronouns are he/him. And I also am an OBGYN who grew up in North Carolina, though in a different part of the state than Bev as my boss. So, that's how I got involved in the podcast. Yeah, Outlawed has been a fantastic way for us to talk with people, ask questions, and think more carefully, in particular about what we can do to improve the conversation around reproductive healthcare and abortion in particular. And get people thinking about it and caring about it in a time when I think that's more important than ever.
Jennie: First of all, I love your podcast and I'm so excited to have y'all on. Would you wanna talk a little bit about, like, what prompted you to start it? Like, I think there's so much work that goes into a podcast, I can only assume being OBGYNs and North Carolina, y'all are very busy right now. So, what prompted you to be like, hey, let's start a podcast, on top of all of the other things?
Bev: Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I think our families would probably ask the same question, like, why are you taking on an extra job? That's fine. When the Dobbs decision happened, we were lucky enough to collaborate with an oral historian here at Duke, and we started collecting stories from providers, mainly in restricted states, and started this oral history archive. And as we were doing that, we were hearing these amazing stories. Jonas and I are also like, we do a lot of interviews with journalists and we would do like this, like, heart wrenching interview, and then they would take one soundbite and we kept feeling like, God, I wish they would just tell the whole story. Like tell more of the story.
Jennie: Yeah.
Bev: Because there's more to it than just soundbites. And so some of the participants doing those interviews in the oral history were like, we want you to share our story more broadly. Like, how are you gonna get this out there? And so we well I sort of had this idea and we got some funding through a private donor to do the first season of the podcast. And so we are, well, so I can speak for myself. I don't know how I'm technologically challenged just at baseline. Like you, like it took us how long? It takes 10 minutes to get the sound ready for today and we're experienced with this. So, you know, it's hard to learn a new task when, you know, you've, you've learned a lot of tasks in your life. So, hiring Jane Marie and getting her on the podcast was awesome. So she's an experienced producer, was a producer for This American Life for 10 years and then now has her own podcast, The Dream. And she helped us create something that we had no idea could be so cool. And so, she really created a sound and was able to help us with some of the interviews and we were just really proud of what she was able to help us make.
Jennie: That's awesome. I feel you on the like technical front, like what I first started mine, it was very much like learning on my own and then also drawing the line of like, you can make me learn some things, but I'm not going to be our editor because I have my other job that you want me to do on top. I'm not adding more, other more on top. So thank you. We will hire an editor.
Jonas: Yeah. I think that that was a challenge for us was that we didn't even know the names of what, of the people who we needed to hire or involved. Oh yeah. And luckily Jane was very generous with us just saying producer over and over again, even though she was doing all of these different jobs. But it is, you know, a totally different field and different types of expertise. And so, it really has taken a whole group of people to help make this work.
Jennie: So, I really love…and one of the things y'all have talked about on the podcast is myths and like kind of countering some of the myths that are out there. So, what are some of the myths that you've tried to dispel?
Jonas: I think one of the first ones that we've frequently encounter and I hear from my patients is that abortion isn't safe. And people often think if asked that childbirth is safer than abortion, and that's just not true. And we support people who want to have a childbirth and people who want to have an abortion. But the fact of the matter is that it is less risky to have an abortion in the first trimester or in the second trimester, or even in the third trimester than it is to carry a pregnancy to term. And...But people come in really scared about having a medication abortion or about having a procedural abortion because of what they've heard in the media. And I think it's actually really hard to counter that. It's even, you know, just repeating it over and over again when people have heard a lot of propaganda about the dangers of abortion or a lot of information about how abortion needs to be regulated, I think it's hard to fight against that and say, all right, well this is actually 14 times safer than childbirth and you're avoiding all of the risks of ongoing pregnancy. And so this is a safe thing to do. We can do it in a safe setting that's comfortable for you. And so, we really try to repeat that both for our patients and then through the podcast.
Bev: And I think related, a lot of people have this myth that they're at risk of infertility with abortion, which is again, a huge myth. And I would say a lot of people are really worried, like, now might not be the right time for them to have a pregnancy, but they're really worried: what if I make a decision now that's gonna affect future me? And when they hear that, and you know, some of the folks we care for get care at a crisis pregnancy center before they seek care in our clinic. And so, they've been kind of pumped with these ideas of misinformation. And so it takes a while to unravel that sometimes and really to help people not be afraid of care that's exceedingly safe.
Jennie: Yeah. And I feel like the fertility one is when you also see around birth control. Like, I feel like it's been one of those that kind of like comes and goes a little bit. I remember it being really big when I was younger and then it's, I feel like getting a real resurgence recently with misinformation about it affecting future fertility.
Jonas: Yeah, I think that conversation about birth control, you're absolutely right. I think it is having a moment and is growing and you know, I think it is important for people to be able to tell their stories, right? And I think that's certainly what you see in, or what I see in birth control on social media now is that people are, do have a platform where they can share their individual experiences in a way that they maybe couldn't have previously. But when it is coupled with this idea that it is doing harm to people, then that's really damaging because it scares people away from using something that is helpful for the majority of people and doesn't have that complication for the majority of people.
Jennie: Well, I think the other thing that we're thinking about is how some of these myths then become policy or impact how policy is done. Have you seen examples of that?
Bev: So many. So many examples like bills hyper regulating medication abortion, when, you know, my favorite story to tell about medication abortion is that mifepristone and Viagra at the same time applied for approval through the FDA and Viagra was approved in lightning speed for the FDA, which was like two years. And it took four years for mifepristone to be approved. Yet mifepristone is much safer than Viagra, and yet it's hyper regulated—patients, you know, have to go through extra hoops to get it in a clinic setting. And you know, I think all of those regulations around mifepristone really are not about safety. They're about hindering people from getting the care that maybe they want and need.
Jonas: So many of the bills are also named things like the Protection of Women and Children Act.
Bev: Mm-hmm.
Jonas: And that misnomer is powerful. And because, you know, then when you vote against it, "oh, you're against the protection of women and children?" But it, you know, they're just, it's just false names, but they are again, really damaging. It's, it is powerful to have, you know, a name is powerful and people are confused. It's hard to read the legislature. I have trouble reading bills and understanding what they mean. And so, the, you know, when you have a title like that, it's hard to understand what actually is contained.
Jennie: Yeah. You definitely have that. And then you also have things that they try to make sound reasonable and like, if you don't know all the details behind it, it can be hard. I'm thinking back through like all the fights around, like, TRAP laws with like admitting privileges and, and like transfer arrangement arrangements and people thinking like, oh yeah, no, the doctors should totally have admitting privileges at a local hospital without understanding how those things work. And that hospitals don't just hand them out on a silver platter to everybody, like- Jonas: Yeah.
Jennie: And so, you can have things that sound good and sound like they're protecting patient safety but are actually just trying to restrict care.
Jonas: We often will talk about the report from the national, well it's the formerly the Institute of Medicine, right. This big systematic review, which essentially concluded that regulations to abortion, like, TRAP laws don't do anything to make it safer. They only make it more difficult to access. Right. It already is really safe and we study it and we regulate it really well as a profession. And so, these outside laws are only making it harder and more expensive for people to access. Jennie: Or even just thinking about how with having all of those laws passed based on myths or that sound good, it reinforces that perception that abortion is not safe. Bev: Yeah.
Jennie: So, like, why would they be regulating it so much if it wasn't unsafe? Yeah,
Bev: No, I was talking to someone yesterday about we have this forced bias counseling that we're required to do with patients 72 hours in person before they can seek abortion care, and they have to initial every single line, and it has to be read to them by a licensed nurse or physician before they can have care. And so, even though some of these things that I'm reading are derogatory, not applicable to their situation, or just straight up offensive, I'm required to read it. And so I was, you know, I was talking to someone yesterday, I was thinking like, you know: all the time I'm thinking like, what do patients really think? Do they think that, I believe what I'm saying when I read this, even if I preface it by saying, this is required by the state, we're gonna give you all the information that's necessary that you need. Yet I'm required to tell patients that even if the father of the baby is gonna pay for your abortion, he's still liable for child support. Like, just like these things that we're required to say to people that really are, you know, can get in between the relationship and the trust. And there's always, there's all already this, like, mistrust of the medical establishment in the medical system. And then if we have to read bias counseling that maybe increases that mistrust. It doesn't serve anyone.
Jonas: And there's no other part of medicine where you have to do that. Right. No one's requiring a cardiologist to say fake things before they care for you. And it's really confusing, right? You go into an interaction with a healthcare provider to get the information that you need about healthcare. You don't expect them to be covering a bunch of extraneous stuff that a legislator has said that they have to cover.
Jennie: Yeah. I mean, it just also makes me think of some of the things that states where it got required to have say around, like, medication abortion and, like, abortion reversal and things that are not things and that are harmful. Like, I can't imagine doctors being put in that position.
Bev: Yeah. I mean it's when you have to read this multiple times a day, you know, it just, it's, it's really challenging.
Jonas: Yeah, it's degrading, right? It's degrading for you. It's degrading for the patient. And I mean I, we do talk with our colleagues who in various places about how they deal with that, right? Like, how do you convey in this interaction: this is the information that you value and this is the information that you should not value or that, you know, doesn't have an equal like gravitas from me. I don't know. Yeah. While following the letter of the law because we were all really wanna make sure that we're following the regulations.
Jennie: Yeah.
Bev: Right? Like, we still have to be able to provide care to people. And so we, you know, doctors are generally rule followers, right? So, you know, even if it's a law that is contrary to evidence-based medicine, contrary to our values or what the textbook says, like, we have to follow the law.
Jennie: So, why do you think some of these myths start to take hold?
Bev: I don't know. Like, let's take an example. So like the example of abortion after birth. I think that one took hold because it seems like this, it was starting to be propagated by people from very high positions and you know, I think people think, oh, well this is someone that I believe and trust on all these in all these other ways. Why would they say something so inflammatory about this? It must be true. Right? Like, and so I think that's, that's a tough one. I don't know.
Jonas: I mean, so one thing that was surprising for me, and I think for Bev too was how hard it was for us to define some of the terms when we tried to, you know, like really define talk about, all right, well what is pregnancy and what is abortion? And we understand them, but they're hard to talk about and hard to understand. And I think the abortion after birth myth, right? It's very evocative, right? The imagery is very evocative, so it's very useful if you oppose abortion and wanna galvanize people to oppose it. And it's hard to understand what the difference is between abortion later in pregnancy and a birth=. Like those are, those are concepts that can be hard to understand, hard to explain and uncomfortable to explain. And so, I think that they take hold. I mean the other, the other myth that I think about is the breast cancer, you know, that there's an increased risk of breast cancer after having had an abortion, which is again, a myth, it's not true. And you know, part of the problem is that there's been bad science, right? So people have conducted studies in ways that they came to a conclusion that was not scientifically supported by better studies. And in some cases, like, the data on abortion reversal, those papers have been retracted. In some cases, they haven't. And so, you know, if you look it up, you can cite whatever you want or you can find something and then, you know, then either legislators repeat it or sometimes it's people who want to oppose abortion. Sometimes it's people who are well-intentioned but have looked it up and don't evaluate the evidence well, but I think it creates this sort of problematic self-fulfilling prophecy, right? I believe there's a study from several years ago in Utah that looked at, because at the time their state mandated counseling required that they mentioned a risk of breast cancer. And I may be getting the state wrong, but I believe it was Utah. And they did, you know, people's reactions to that information because it was in the state mandated counseling was of belief, right? So, it's hard to counter that-
Jennie: Yeah.
Jonas: -if It's baked into the procedure that you're getting or the counseling that you're getting.
Jennie: I also think the anti-abortion folks are really good at naming things, evocative things that then get repeated and then become like the media's name for the thing. Like, how often do we hear about, you know, bans around six weeks being called "heartbeat bans," right. Or things like that where it evokes this certain image in people's heads and then just gets solidified as that's what that thing is and then that's what everybody calls it.
Bev: Right? We talked a lot about heartbeats and kind of, I mean, I think when you talk about a heartbeat, you think about a person that you could listen to their heartbeat with a stethoscope, someone who has hopes and dreams and aspirations. Yet this is like electrical activity in the very early stages of pregnancy. Like, at that stage there's not even really blood that's being pumped in the embryo. So I mean, it's like this...but you're exactly right, it solidifies this idea that like, there is this a line that you can put there.
Jonas: Turns out it's a lot easier to just come up with a cool name for something than it is to have a scientific basis behind the name. So, maybe we should just focus on that.
Jennie: I know, I think maybe we care about facts too much.
Jonas: Yeah. That is the problem. That's what's holding us back. I think that's the problem.
Jennie: I just had an interview where somebody was interviewing about our report card that we just put out and she's like, so why do facts still matter? And I was just like, oh God, don't ask me, like, the hard question at all.
Jonas: [Chuckles]
Bev: I mean clearly we're, like, scientists, like, we care about facts.
Jennie: Yeah. It matters. And I think what we were trying to do with the podcast is pair the stories with the science. And I think some people are very moved by stories. Some people are very moved by science. A lot of people are very moved by both. And so, when you can put those two together, you can create, you know, a powerful picture of like, okay, this is what things are really like, this is what people's lives are really like and this is why we should care about it. And this is the science to back up this person's story. We've worked a fair amount with Dr. Diana Green Foster. She came and visited and gave a talk and we had a showing of the Turnaway Play here. And she just came to visit the area recently and was talking about how if we could just listen to people's stories, like they tell us why they need abortion care, they tell us why now is not the right time, but people don't always believe them. So, like, having the Turnaway Study it shows what the stories we're telling her. So she has all this amazing qualitative data and she was like, if we just listen to women and to people seeking abortion care, then, you know, that's all we need. But people want the science and the data to prove that as well.
Jennie: Oh man, I use her data all the time.
Bev: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jennie: So, that makes me think: what are some of your favorite conversations that you've had on the podcast?
Jonas: Well, I think both of, I mean, we're really grateful for all of the participants just to say. And so there, I think some of it is like the, you know, there's moments in every one where you're, you just think, ugh, you put that so well. I wish I could speak as well as you and talk that way. I think that happens in every episode. I guess one of my favorite episodes of the conversations that happened in the third episode, which is about a provider who is a high risk pregnancy provider in Texas and cares for patients who often need abortion care and talks a lot about the limitations that she has end up putting on patients in terms of the care they're able to get, which aren't, you know, they're imposed by her, by the state on her. And she speaks really eloquently about how the economic circumstances of her patients either enable them to be able to, you know, when they have exactly the same condition, some patients can go outta state to get the abortion that they need, and some patients just have to remain pregnant and give birth. It's really, really a heartbreaking and powerful story, right? This is the same condition and these are two people who are getting vastly different care and there's nothing I can do about it.
Bev: In each episode. Like, I have, like something that's like the favorite part of the episode. I mean, I was honored to interview both Diana Green Foster and Katie Watson and to hear from them. They're both like, they're both brilliant people. And hearing from them was really amazing. We also have a local reproductive justice advocate, Maya Hart who, who I interviewed a couple of times. One time I was one of the times that we had a major technical difficulty and I didn't get good sound. So it was like one of, like, those, like, stomach falls to the floor. Like I just had this amazing interview and [sighs] but she was amazing every time I talked to her. So, it was great and just helped me. I mean, anytime I talk to someone and they help me see something in a slightly different way, even when I'm immersed in this, you know, content all the time, like, I'm always, I always leave those conversations like, wow, like that was really awesome. And, like, that's what we're hoping the listener gets from this. Like, every episode gets something where they have this little wow moment, like, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way, but I definitely had a couple of moments like that with Maya.
Jonas: The other moment for me is in Jennifer Villavicencio's interview. So, she's an all-trimester abortion provider and she talks about her transformation from being anti-choice and protesting against abortion to becoming, you know, a very comprehensive abortion provider. But at the end, toward the end of the episode, she talks about her mother who is Catholic and has had a lot of difficulty over the years with Jenny's identity and her work but is, you know, fiercely, fiercely supportive and loving of Jenny. And she talks about her mom walking around the neighborhood with her walker and a Planned Parenthood shirt and how, and that's just such a wonderful image and really about sort of how they had this long conversation about abortion and about the work that Jenny does, and they really agree on the value of justice and the value of showing up for people, right? And that is something that her mother really sees, even if she wouldn't do the same work, it's something that clearly Jenny took from her mother and brings to her work every day.
Jennie: Oh, I love that. I can relate to so much of that. I went to Catholic school through kindergarten through eighth grade, and I had a friend in, like, I don't know, fourth, fifth grade, sixth grade, something somewhere in that area who was like, Hey, would you like to come to Madison to go save babies with me? And they're, like, yeah. Like, who doesn't want to go save babies? And like going home and being like, hey mom, can I go with so-and-so to go save babies? And my mom, like, sitting me down and having a conversation with me. And like, it was very just like: have you thought about this? What about the person in this situation? What about that? And then for me, what I thought she did that was really brilliant was she didn't tell me I couldn't go or that I could go or whatever. She just said, do you still want to go? If you want, if you, if that is something you still want to do, that's okay. And like, gave me the information I needed to like, make up my own values in mind with her guiding. And I mean obviously this is what I do now. So, clearly it made an impact and I did not go to Madison to protest at the Planned Parenthood.
Bev: What a cool mom.
Jonas: Yeah. What, how skilled [inaudible].
Jennie: I think the best part is when I started doing this podcast, I think I told that story and she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And I'm like...like, it was just another Tuesday to her and it was like this big aha moment for me.
Bev: That's so cool.
Jonas: That's amazing.
Jennie: Yeah, I mean I, you know, we had a lot of really amazing guests that gave their time and their expertise, but I mean, a lot of the fun part about it, it was just like us, like just talking about stuff that we care about and just like, you know, just spending time in the studio and really like thinking through these issues. Like it's been, you know, in North Carolina we've had new restrictions that came in place in 2023 that really made our practice much more difficult. And so, you know, we were pretty worn and beat down by kind of the post-Dobbs fallout and, you know, caring for so many patients traveling to our state and it was exhausting. And so, I think being able to create something that could maybe help other people to have this conversation and to use some of the things that we've learned along the way was really cathartic.
Jennie: I love that. And I love the thought of like, if people wanna have these conversations with their friends and family, one, do you recommend them doing that? And then two, like how, like how is the best way to have what can sometimes be tense or difficult conversations around really personal issues?
Jonas: I mean, such a great question. I wish we had a good answer. I think I want to turn it back to you actually and ask, like, we oftentimes have the opportunity to meet with policymakers and one of the questions that we often will ask policymakers is: when, can you remember a conversation where someone changed your mind about something and it's really hard to produce actually, that's why, right? Like, the fact that you remember it so clearly-
Jennie: Yeah.
Jonas: -really shows what an unusual circumstance it is where you will have a conversation with someone where your mind changes. And so, I mean, I'm curious more about, about your experience with that, but also, so I think it, it does require a lot of listening and a lot of questioning of, to understand where someone's coming from and what they mean by what they're saying and what they think, you know: what are their values? And once you can get back to that part of the conversation, I think that's a more effective place in the conversation than facts, right? If you just repeat facts, they're gonna either have counter facts or they're not gonna believe you. But if you can this, if you're having a conversation with a loved one, then you're already starting from a place where you guys have mutual affection, right? It is by definition someone who cares about you and you share something with. So start from there, figure out what that is, and then you can go from there and jump off from there to sort of find, alright, well we have some commonalities in the conversation. How do you reconcile this value of justice, this value of self-determination with this belief? That doesn't reconcile for me.
Bev: I mean, I think people absolutely need to talk more about it. I think it's challenging though, right? Like it's challenging to have an uncomfortable conversation with someone you care about. But I think one positive thing about, you know, Dobbs creating a lot of like news and you know, articles about abortion and content about abortion is that people are talking about it much more now than they used to be. And so, I think arming yourself with correct information and information from a reliable source can be really powerful. And you know, I think when people bring up misinformation, I think just asking like, well, tell me more about like where you heard about that or like, how did you come to the conclusion that, you know, this is happening in a widespread way or that this is risky? Like, tell me more. Like, tell me how you got there. And then I think having some knowledge that you can bring to the conversation can be really powerful.
Jennie: Yeah, I always talk about: you don't need to know all the things, but if you can make yourself a trusted resource so people know that they can come to me and if I don't have the answer, but I know that I can send them to Guttmacher for like this specific thing, or I know if they're asking me about sex ed, I can send them to advocates for youth and they're gonna have great information or videos that they can send to their kids. So, I don't need to know, be able to answer every part of every question, but I know some trusted resources I can send them to that will get them some of that correct information. So, you know, and it's finding the space you're comfortable with, right? So, maybe you're not comfortable having that conversation with somebody who's like really anti, but maybe you hear somebody having a conversation around like gestational bans and, and like there's, there's space where you can start like just pushing a little bit of, like, you know, opening their mind a little further and then you get more comfortable and can have other conversations with other people.
Bev: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, am I gonna go out and have these conversations with the protestors outside of the clinic where we work? No. You know, I think there's-
Jennie: Right.
Bev: But if there are people in my life that I care about that I want to understand more about why I do this work, why I think it's important you know, we hold so many stories that our patients share with us and I think that fuels our desire to do this work and our desire to advocate so that people can have this care because we, we hold those stories and have an understanding of how it impacts people's lives every day.
Jonas: Jennie, I love what you said about humility and sort of knowing what you know and knowing what you don't know and knowing where people can get information and I think that's really important, right? Acknowledging, you know, I don't know everything and let's figure this out together. And I think that's what makes people trust you or that's what makes me trust people for sure.
Jennie: Okay. So, everything feels really heavy right now. Understatement of like the decade, but how, how do you maintain hope right now? How are you, like, keeping going?
Bev: Well, I mean it's, you know, I tend to be a pretty optimistic person. I mean, we sort of have this agreement that one of us will always be optimistic
Jonas: Yeah. It's not about what you can't do, it's about what you can do. And sometimes you just have to focus on exactly that. I mean, one of the reasons that I enjoy being an abortion provider is I feel like when you provide that abortion care is incredibly gratifying, right? That you are helping someone who comes to you saying, all right, I need this service and I want you to help me and you help provide that service. And generally, you know, you're able to, that is really gratifying, right? There aren't other types of medicine and not many interactions that I have in my day where you're able to help someone with something and potentially have a life changing, often have a life changing impact for them. And I think when you lose hope, you can focus on that, that you still get to do that, you still are able to do that. And that is really a privilege.
Jennie: I have to say, what gives me hope is y'all and abortion providers on the ground and the clinic staff and the abortion funds who are doing everything in their power to make sure as many people as possible are able to access the care they need. And it can often be thankless and you have to deal with protesters and people harassing you at the clinic and every day you're going in and doing that work. And that just, that gives me so much hope that we can get through to a better path because there are people who are doing that work to meet those needs.
Bev: Yeah, it's a pretty amazing group of people that we get to work and interact with and, you know, some of the best people in the medical field are people that are, you know, giving their time and their energy to care for patients seeking abortion. And so many of our patients now are, you know, traveling great distances, overcoming enormous barriers to get to care and are just incredibly grateful when they're able to get the care that they need. And I think being able to be a part of that experience shouldn't be like that, right? Like, it shouldn't, they shouldn't have to go over so many barriers to get care, but being part of that is gratifying and gives me hope that we're providing the right care that people need and we'll keep moving.
Jennie: I mean, hope feels like the perfect place to stop. So Bev, Jonas, thank you so much for being here today at a wonderful time talking to you. And I look forward to popping by your podcast to talk to you all and-
Bev: Yeah.
Jennie: Audience, you can go check us out there.
Bev: Awesome. Thank you so much.
Jonas: Yeah, thank you.
Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Beverly and Jonas. It was so much fun talking to them and I had so much fun talking to them on their podcast. So now that you are done listening to my conversation with them, you should go to Outlawed and listen to their conversation with me. And while you're there, you should definitely check out the rest of Outlawed episodes. It is a wonderful podcast. Okay, y'all, see you on Tuesday. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all!
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Always work on maintaining hope, even if that requires taking a break. Enjoy your community, talk to lawmakers, educate friends and family members, and continue your advocacy in the ways you’d like to, when you’d like to.