Watch Out for These SCOTUS Cases Threatening LGBTQI+ Health and Rights

T/W: Discussions of suicide in the last 1/3 of this conversation

The health, rights, and wellbeing of the LGBTQI+ community are under increasingly distressing strain, with a collection of new court cases only cementing the burden. Preston Mitchum, writer, policy analyst, consultant, star of Summer House: Martha’s Vineyard, and Senior Fellow with rePROs Fight Back, sits down to talk with us about a host of Supreme Court cases that have broad and damaging implications for the health and rights of the LGBTQI+ community.

Kennedy v. Braidwood Management, Inc. is a SCOTUS case surrounding the Affordable Care Act’s requirements for low-cost coverage of preventative services, including pre-exposure prophylaxis (PrEP), which is used by many different populations. This could threaten the affordability of an essential and effective medicinal treatment, pushing the price high enough that PrEP becomes inaccessible to many. Mahmoud v. Taylor revolves around school boards’ inclusion of books featuring LGBTQI+ storylines in the school curriculum, citing a violation of religious rights.

In addition to the above Supreme Court cases, A leaked budget showed that there would be significant funding cuts and elimination of services for 988— a three-digit number to reach the national suicide and crisis hotline. Preston’s work was instrumental in the legislation that developed this number, which passed the House, passed the Senate, and was signed by President Trump in his first term. The line has counselors specifically for high-risk groups, including LGBTQI+ folks. 988 is still available if you need someone to talk to.

Links from this episode

988
Preston Mitchum’s website
Kennedy v. Braidwood Management, Inc.
Mahmoud v. Taylor
All Boys Aren’t Blue
Banned books list
The government suggests defunding the 988 suicide hotline for LGBTQ+ youth

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I feel like I am finally starting to get from under the mountain of email from when I was gone. I just, I feel like there's so much that happened and I'm still just trying to catch up, but I think things are finally moving a little bit and I'm feeling like I can see the bottom of my inbox, which is exciting and it's getting to be in a much better place. So that's good. And I have been busy trying to edit all of my pictures from vacation, which has also been a lot of fun. But y'all, I took so many pictures. It is wild. I definitely got carried away. I had a new camera, so I was definitely playing around with it. And there were so many. And then when I uploaded them, for some reason, I don't know what happened, they uploaded in utter chaos. So, as I was clicking through them to edit them, it was like just in no order whatsoever. Luckily, when I finished and got them all in a folder, they were named correctly. So, I was able to sort them by name and now they're back in order. But man, I was really worried as I was editing that it was just gonna be chaos and I was never gonna figure out, like, which photos were from which day and which location and things like that. But now that I have them separated and in a folder I can, I can do that better. So, that was a big relief for me just 'cause the chaos was kind of making my mind a little crazy. My two little monsters are getting a little bit better about not being quite as clingy. Like, as I am recording this, Luna is actually sleeping on my bed in a different room instead of right by me, which is nice. On the other hand, Cinder is, like, parked right next to me on my desk, although she's, like, lives on my desk when I work anyway, so that's not really a huge change. But they are both very, still very attached and, like, to the point of if like, I go in my bathroom and close the door, like somebody is sitting out there crying. So, they are still dealing with me being gone for two and a half weeks, but they're getting better and being good. So, that's something that is, that is something right now. Other than that, I feel like there's just been a lot going on and I am just still trying to find my footing a little bit after being back. So, maybe we'll just leave it there and turn to this week's episode. And I'm very excited for this week's episode. We are having our brand new rePROs senior fellow Preston Mitchum to talk about a range of issues. I'm so excited to have him on. It has been quite a while since he's been on the podcast. So, it was great to have him and I'm so excited to have him as part of the rePROs team as a senior fellow. So, you know, keep your eyes open for some writing by him that we'll have coming soon. And also, just a thing, something for this episode, we're gonna put a trigger warning on it just so that you are aware. We do talk about suicide. We're talking about the 988 suicide prevention hotline. So, we don't talk details about suicide, but suicide is a large part of the last third of our conversation. So if you need to step away, please step away. If you need to come back to it at a later time, we'll see you then and or if you just can't listen to it, we'll see you next week in a different episode. But that is the last third of our conversation. So, if you wanna listen to the first part where we were talking about some of the LGBTQ cases that were in front of the Supreme Court this past couple weeks. So, it was one about having inclusive books at school that's being challenged and a case that is challenging, at the core of it, challenging the preventative services group that decides what preventative services are covered under the ACA and the part that the group that is suing is challenging was having to cover PrEP. So, we talk about that. So, it's a really great conversation—of course it's a great conversation, it's Preston—but yeah, the last third we do talk about suicide. So, just a little bit of a trigger warning. Okay, with that, let's go to my interview with Preston.

Jennie: Hi Preston. Thank you so much for being here today.

Preston: Hi Jennie. Thank you. I'm so excited to be back after what feels like forever, but I'm really happy to be here.

Jennie: I know [chuckles] I was like thinking back and I think the last time you're on was maybe the episode we did, like right after you had COVID, and we talked about COVID and your personal experience.

Preston: Yes, that was, oh my gosh, that was one of the last times.

Jennie: That'd be five years ago.

Preston: Thank goodness at that time—well, it hasn't really come and gone, it's still here whether we discuss it or not—but in my body it has gone thankfully. [chuckles]

Jennie: Yeah, that is shocking to think that it has been so long.

Preston: Yes.

Jennie: But you've been up to so much and have been doing so many wonderful things.

Preston: Thank you.

Jennie: I'm so excited to have you on. But before we, like, jump into all the conversation, which I sometimes do when I get excited, would you like to introduce yourself before we get going?

Preston: Yes, happy to. Hey y'all, Preston Mitchum, I use he/him pronouns. I am based in Washington DC. I am a Black queer writer, policy analyst, reality TV star, some would say, and all things nerd and Beyonce. So, I'm so excited to be back here.

Jennie: I have to say I did not watch Summer House 'cause I just, I couldn't do it. I was like, I, he is my friend. I cannot watch any sort of mess. Like, I just can't. But I enjoyed clips I saw and the amazing gifts that you have of you.

Preston: Yes, I would joke and tell people, I'm like, I promise you will like me in real life. And on the show.

Jennie: It's just, it's hard to watch a friend in that.

Preston: No, I get it.

Jennie: But I was, like, I was so excited for you.

Preston: Thank you.

Jennie: Okay, so there was so much happening in the news in the last couple weeks that the only person I could think of to have on was you, 'cause it relates to so much of your work and broader LGBTQ issues that you were, like, the ideal person to talk to. So, let's start with the Kennedy v. Braidwood case that was in front of the Supreme Court. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about what this case is about?

Preston: Sure. So, most recently the Supreme Court heard our arguments in Kennedy v. Braidwood Management in this case in particular. So we have Braidwood Management who is a Christian owned business and then six individuals in Texas. And what they've done is they challenge—dun dun dun!—the Affordable Care Act again, right? Again, because there's been so much litigation and relitigation of the Affordable Care Act. But specifically what they actually challenge are the requirements to cover preventative services. So, for those who don't know, there's a structure called the US Preventive Services Task Force and they're an independent entity that actually can, is convened by the federal government and they make recommendations for preventative services such as PrEP pre-exposure prophylaxis. We can get to that in a minute, but nearly all private insurances must cover without cost sharing. And so that is specifically, what's that question? It's whether the independent entity that's convened by the federal government violates the US Constitution's appointments clause. And that's the case because according to the Constitution, offices of the United States may only be appointed by the president subject to advice and consent by the Senate. And the litigants here, Braidwood Management that is, are claiming that the USPSTF, the Preventive Services Task Force does not have an appointment or advice or consent by the Senate and therefore violates that clause. Why that's a deeper issue here again, it's because they are the structure that discusses things around preventative services. And so, one of the things that ultimately will be questioned then is if therefore PrEP and the low-cost coverage given by the ACA therefore violates Braidwood Management under what they're alleging to be a violation of their freedom of religion. Meaning that they don't believe that there are certain things that they actually have to cover or certain things that people have to, to cover even though they are, and sometimes especially because they are preventative services.

Jennie: And this may all be familiar to our guests, or our audience because this has come up before in a little bit of a different way with the birth control benefit. This is the same place where we see had the birth control benefit come up and when it was challenged for similar companies saying that they didn't have to cover birth control for religious reasons, they went after it that way. But this is going a little further and going after the structure-

Preston: Correct.

Jennie: -of the Preventive Services Task Force.

Preston: Correct. And I think another point that your audience may be interested in is that, you know, we know President Trump has supported a CA repeal many times, but especially during his first term in office. But his administration is actually defending the lawsuit. But I wanna be clear, there's nothing to be proud of. The only reason why his team is defending the lawsuit is because he is currently the president, right? And so, you know, it's gonna allow him to actually have broader appeal and really broader latitude to some of the recommendations that ultimately some of his entities that are independent, but again, run through the federal government can actually push through at this point. So, I know someone, you know, I talked to someone recently, they're like, that's a good thing, right? And I'm like, I know we're looking for wins, but I assure you it is not a good thing.

Jennie: Yeah. Like, it is, like, a bit messy, right? Because we wanna make sure that the preventative task force is able to do their job and have that be supported and not have to go through the Senate and, like, all these extra hoops to get people in place 'cause sometimes that makes it hard to get good people.

Preston: Exactly.

Jennie: But also, if you have this very anti-science and anti LGBTQ and anti-rights administration, that also is a mess.

Preston: Exactly. Exactly. Especially when you layer so-called religious freedom on top of that. And so, you know, ultimately what we're talking about here is not only the US Preventive Services task force, but things like the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which again here they're alleging is being violated because they don't believe that medication to prevent HIV from sex or injection drug use is something that actually aligns with their religion, if you will.

Jennie: So, I guess that leads me just to think like what would this mean? Like, what are the implications of a bad decision in this case?

Preston: There are tons of implications in this case. I mean, I've been a PrEP user for about 10 years now. So yeah, I think my, I actually started PrEP in 2015. And one PrEP is, but before you have pharmaceutical companies like Gilead offering codes for people who cannot afford PrEP to actually get PrEP to lower the cost to $0. Then again, of course because of the ACA's low cost or no cost coverage for PrEP, you have people who ordinarily would've been paying 2000 a month for 30 or 60 or 90 day supply to now where the numbers are $0 for many people. And sometimes, you know, I've talked to some friends who may be paying 10 to 15 dollars, so still like an incredibly low-cost coverage for prep, you know, if, you know, these numbers could skyrocket quite frankly. And we don't really know exactly what that looks like yet. But that's one of the implications of what happens if the conservative justice sway a little too conservatively. In this instance we could be looking at PrEP becoming extremely unavailable for people for no other reason because of the cost, obviously making it incredibly unavailable because it's so exorbitantly priced. I will never forget actually before you know, seeing the sticker shock of $2,100 ring up at CVS pharmacy when I initially got on PrEP and I'm like, there's no way I can afford to pay this. And it was a pharmacist who actually told me about ways to actually reduce it to $0 or low cost coverage. And so, that's a huge implication there. Frankly, I think about specific things like what happens when you don't have access to PrEP. I mean, PrEP in terms of preventing HIV from sex is about 99% effective for ejection drug use is about 74-75%. But still that's, that's an incredibly high rate of effectiveness, particularly when you're discussing things like most at risk populations or, or marginalized communities. So, like, men who have sex with men, sex workers, trans women, people in confinement settings, you know, things like PrEP and having access to prep is, is a lifesaving intervention for, for them. And especially when you couple it with the fact of HIV prevalence and incidence rates. I think a damning thing here, quite frankly is many of these people, be it the far right extreme or Christian nationalist movement, I mean some of the stereotypes that are happening here is one, they believe that the only people who are even using PrEP are gay and queer people or people who are promiscuous if you will. But when it's really people who actually are just protecting themselves, right? Straight women also could be diagnosed with HIV, people who have sex for the first time could acquire HIV, right? Like, this is not something that is just for one group of people. And that is really the stereotypes around a lot of this, quite frankly. Two, I think a lot of what we're seeing here are people who believe that if you don't make PrEP available, then people probably will stop having sex, when again, we know that that's not true. In the same way that made them think that if abortion access would not be made available, the rate of abortions would decrease. Again, we're seeing the opposite. And so, you know, I think ultimately there are many implications happening here and all of them, quite frankly, are rooted in fallacies and things that are just quite frankly illogical.

Jennie: Yeah. It just makes me think of the people who are, like, if we don't teach kids sex ed, they won't have sex.

Preston: Exactly. Exactly. It's like no, they're actually having sex and they're doing it in more sexually riskier ways because we're not giving them the tools and the resources to actually make informed decisions for their bodies and their partner's bodies.

Jennie: Yeah. The other thing I was thinking of as you were telling your story is that you got lucky, right? You went to a pharmacist who was willing to give you that information that enabled you to access PrEP. You could afford, if you went to an unsupportive pharmacist, they may have never told you and you wouldn't have been able to access the care. And, like, I know you would've probably navigated the system and figured it out, but there are a lot of people like that would've been the end.

Preston: Well, and that's important to mention, right? Because I am someone who at this point in my life, I mean even back then I had three degrees. I was doing work in research and policy on issues related to health equity work.

Jennie: Yeah.

Preston: And there were still things I didn't even know to ask the questions about or how to navigate the systems. Now being as diligent as I am, again, to your point, I would've figured it out ultimately. But there are many people who don't have access to those resources and quite frankly, who don't have access to affirming people like that. Pharmacists who said, wait, especially as she noticed I was about to walk away. Right? And so, when you don't have people in your life who can navigate those systems in that way for you or you know, don't have anyone who's affirming to you and your identities, they will let you walk away and then you're still going to continue to engage sexually 'cause many of us doin the ways that still feels best for you. And I think the problem with a lot of this is there's still a one size fits all model in healthcare at large, right? Most of it is not individualized care. Most of it is not culturally or clinically competent in order for people to actually have a safe and learning environment even through things like medicine and medical interventions. And that is what we're gonna see a lot here. I really fear because even the conversations of why people take PrEP is so fascinating to me because for me, a lot of people can ask the question in love, why do you take PrEP as an example? But the reality is we know why most people take PrEP, right? We know what PrEP is for. So, I really want people to lean more into love of asking questions and genuine curiosity as opposed to what sometimes feels like a gotcha moment or a moment of saying like, well, you know, you could just reduce your sexual partners because the reality is that's a one size fits all model approach that's unhelpful and in clinical setting. People are, they're gonna engage in the ways that feel best to them. The question there should be: how do we actually make sure we're building up interventions that honor those people's lived experiences as opposed to sometimes just what the books say?

Jennie: Yeah. And it, like, pushes people away from accessing that care if they feel like they're being stigmatized or not listened to or heard or or ashamed.

Preston: Yeah. I mean, and there's tons of data on it, right? Like, we should not be having to tell these stories again. I mean there's there, there's been data on this for decades and I wish that was hyperbole, but there has been data on for decades about how judge, shame, and stigma actually really feeds unfortunately this really bad healthcare infrastructure and people's experiences within it.

Jennie: Okay. So, unfortunately this wasn't the only time things related to LGBTQ issues were at the court last week. Well, I guess when people hear this two weeks ago, and I know we're not gonna spend a ton of time on this, but it just hits like a special niche issue for me 'cause I'm a big book person. I love and I make sure to read banned books. So this hit me right in my sweet spot and that is the Mahmoud v. Taylor case. Do you just wanna do, like, a really quick, like what it was about, 'cause it was dealing with books related to LGBTQ, I mean, I don't even wanna say issues. Like, it was just a representation.

Preston: Yeah, I mean I ultimately think this is gonna always have a sweet spot for me in particular if for no other reason. Because my very best friend George Johnson, who wrote All Boys on Blue, had the number one most banned book in 2024. Like, bigger than literally every other book. It was number one on the list. And we joke about it sometimes and say we're number one, [chuckles] right? Like, good old America. But there's actually a really sad situation when you really have people actually discussing and litigating against what can be heard or taught or what your children can read. Like, it's really sad.

Jennie: And it's such a beautiful book. So y'all, if you haven't read it, please read it.

Preston: I mean it's really, it's really sad. I think also 'cause the case Mahmoud v. Taylor speaks from home in several ways, right? It's, you know, it's really a group of parents that's brought in Montgomery County, Maryland. Which is in DC. It's our backyard.

Jennie: Yep.

Preston: And it's against the board of education of the school district specifically. But you know, the reality is it revolves around the district's decision to include certain books with LGBTQ+ characters and themes and the school curriculum and specifically the parents here are arguing that the religious rights are being violated. I mean that's the thing that's the through line with all this, right? Yeah. Religious rights, religious freedoms. But those parents here are arguing that their rights are being violated by not being able to opt their children out of class when such books are to be used. And listen, for a lot of people that sounds logical and sounds reasonable. Most people will affirm the parent's decisions that they're actively attempting to parent what they believe is best for the child. But I think the problem is, you know, who they're not asking? The children. Right? They're not asking the young people if they actually want to learn and be included in those conversations and learn more about, like, characters that are beyond their own or maybe characters that they actually are in real life, but that these parents are refusing to actually accept. And to me that is gonna always be the most fundamentally frustrating part and scary part are that many of these books written by these authors are written with love and care. We think that there's an environment and we know that there's an environment where children and their parents need to see families like their own in books, right? Like, I think about my first time even reading or thinking about characters or the first time I've seen people in film and television and what does that actually mean to have your stories told and how do you feel seen? And I think especially in light of what we're seeing regarding the erosion of DEI and justice from the Trump Vance administration, I mean, this is unfortunately a perfect time for people who actually want to tout "religious freedom" while still being hateful to people right now because they have the background of the federal government to affirm that thinking and affirm that decision. And so, this is nothing more but just censorship, right? It's censorship, it is segregation of books. It’s created an environment where we believe people don't exist. It's created an environment where we don't believe that all families deserve to be seen. And that is gonna be the danger of this specific case. So, yes, in short, all of it is because the district and the board of education for the county decided to include LGBTQ books. I mean, what, what a shock and horror, I guess.

Jennie: I know, right? The bottom line. They wanted kids to be able to see themselves in their families and the things they were reading.

Preston: Correct. And not to the exclusion of other people, right? No. Like I think that is always what I'm gonna find the most fascinating in these situations, right? So even thinking back to like comprehensive sexuality education, you know, you would hear people then say, we need to teach about abstinence. And I'm like, well, abstinence is inclusive of comprehensive sexuality education. And so I'm, like, the problem, what you want to hear is abstinence-only when we know that that is actually not rooted in science or any data that we have. Similarly, it's not as if we had the school district that stated we're gonna have LGBTQ books with LGBTQ characters and that's it. We don't care about straight people. We don't care about men and women households. We don't care about, you know, the white picket fence and the two and a half kids. But they believe many of these people believe that the inclusion of LGBTQ+ people is to the exclusion of straight people. And that is just fundamentally untrue.

Jennie: Yeah. The point about sex ed is well taken again, as you know, someone who had sex ed from a nun. Like I really feel the lack of fully comprehensive inclusive sex education and the impact it has on your life.

Preston: Yes, we all need really good sex ed. And it's amazing when you talk to people about their sex ed and if they believe they had good sex ed. Many people think that they do. And I'm like, no, you saw a condom being put on a banana.

Jennie: I did not.

Preston: That's not... right? Like, well me either to be clear. I did not either. But I really want us to expand what we believe good sex ed to have meant for us growing up 'cause if we actually reflect on it, most of our sex ed was like: don't get pregnant, don't get STIs.

Jennie: That's it.

Preston: That's it.

Jennie: Yep. Yep. And the perfect time to have this conversation 'cause when people are hearing this episode, it will be sex ed month. So, okay. So the other thing I wanted to talk to you about is something that I thought of you the second I saw it because I knew this was your baby and that is the administration talking about getting rid of the 988 system first before we get into like cutting it, let's talk about what it is and honestly the amazing work you did to make it happen.

Preston: Mm, thanks friend. So yes, 988 was is still the three digit number to reach the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Back some years ago, it was a long form number and so a lot of people got together and the mental health crisis prevention and suicide prevention space and said, you know what? We need a short number for people who are going through crisis or suicidal thoughts or ideations to really just remember something and it could be via text, chat, or calling. And at this time I served as the director of advocacy and government affairs at the Trevor Project. And my job was to really help build up 988. And so, at that time, we had got the legislative, the legislation passed, it was the first legislative text with the word LGBTQ+ in it that passed unanimously out of committee, it passed Congress or passed both House and Senate and it was signed, believe it or not, actually, by President Trump, Trump 1.0. And so that's why all of this is really fascinating. Maybe not surprising, but fascinating now because I think a lot of people actually don't realize that the initial text was signed into law by President Trump.

Jennie: Nope. Totally forgot.

Preston: Yeah. Yeah. And so it was one of the biggest bipartisan wins of probably the past 10 years I would argue. And so, you know, yeah. So, while anyone in a mental health crisis can text or call nine eight and be connected to a trained counselor, the line has specially trained counselors specifically for high risk groups like veterans and LGBTQ+ youth. I'm proud to say during my work at the Trevor Project, myself and others advocated for 30 nearly, about 29.6 million dollars in LGBTQ+ specialized services. So you call the number, you talk to a crisis counselor who may be, trans, or non-binary, or at the very least are skilled and culturally competent in the lives of LGBTQ+ youth. You know, we are just last year alone approximately 40% of LGBTQ+ youth considered suicide. And that was by a recent report from the Trevor project. And most recently because of a leaked budget, which is probably the scarier part, we're learning that HHS, which is obviously now spearheaded by someone who does not care about data—Mr. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Himself—We saw a leak budget that stated that there were likely gonna be some significant cuts and almost the elimination of services for LGBTQ through 988, ultimately.

Jennie: I mean, it seems so cliche now just to be like, it's so cruel and just thinking about all of the things that are happening and this moment-

Preston: Mm-Hmm.

Jennie: -attacking trans access to healthcare, trans kids' ability to play sports and all of these things that are pushing people to need those services even more right now and then to take away those services is just absolutely devastating.

Preston: Yeah. I don't know if I even have a better word for it than evil. I mean, like when you, you know, we already have again, this leak federal budget that specifically looked at the elimination of services for LGBTQ youth. We already know the higher rates of suicidal ideations and attempts and sometimes completed suicide is LGBTQ youth and young people generally, quite frankly. We also see the numbers increase for older people. And you know, and again, we can just go through the marginalized communities gamut of who have experienced suicidal thoughts, why that happens, why we need upstream suicide prevention services. Because suicide is not just about someone being sad, right? Sometimes it can be because of serious mental illnesses. Other times it could be about what we know to be the social determinants of health. There are people who experience suicidal thoughts because they're housing insecure, because they don't have access to healthcare settings, because they don't have gender affirming care, because they don't have jobs or because they're underemployed. So, it's not just the things that I think some of us just think about in terms of suicidal thoughts and suicidal ideations. And so when someone says, and they acknowledge and honor that they are going through something and they're like, you know, I actually need support. I'm gonna call someone. And for the response to that be, actually we're gonna take away your literal lifeline, we're gonna take away the fact that you've acknowledged that you can be harmed, including self-harm. We're acknowledging that you may feel depressed or lonely or have anxiety and even though you're looking for someone to call, we're not even gonna fund that. Like, that is an evil thing to do. And there are times I just always want to call things what they are because it's not just, it's not just sad, right? It's actually like something that is ultimately fundamentally evil and will increase—and this is not hyperbolic—will increase the death of people. And honestly, I think that's what they want at this point.

Jennie: Ugh. That just is all so heavy. And yeah. I also think it's really important to remind people you did when you started, but like let's bring it back at the end to be like: it has not happened yet. The services are still available. You can still access 988 if you need it and get LGBTQ specific services.

Preston: Yes. I had to make sure I had to even say is because I was already affirming that. Right? So yeah, 988 is still available. You definitely can still call, text or chat if you need anyone to talk to if you're going through anything. And that means having even a bad day, right? The one thing that I always messaged around 988 was that the moment you should call is not the moment when you are finally in a state of crisis. It can be just, I've had a bad day, I broke up with someone, someone broke up with me. Like, any moment that can build up to the state of crisis or paralysis should be the moments where you start to call. And these are trained counselors, right? They're not just people who, you know, wanna pick up the phone and talk—that's great and they will—but they're also trained and skilled in actually talking to you about your experiences, your moments, asking you questions, sometimes sitting in silence, hearing you cry, crying with you, right? Like, these are people who really are affirmed and believe in you and wanna make sure that you all still see the next day to not just survive, but to thrive ultimately. So please feel free to call, text, chat 988. There are all additional lifeline numbers of course that people can call too. But 98 is always gonna be a through line and the best way to start.

Jennie: Okay, so I know this is something that is right up your alley. I always love to end episodes not just focusing on the issues, but like what can people do, how can people get involved in this moment? So what are some things you would recommend that people who care about these issues, like what can they do to take action right now?

Preston: Yeah, you know, these are, I think for a lot of people, I'm gonna say this and this is what I've been advising a lot of clients on and prospective clients through my consulting firm, PDM consulting. I think a lot of things is about honoring your risk tolerance. For many people in organizations, they are incredibly risk-averse for a variety of reasons. And sometimes I think it's okay to have a higher risk tolerance. In other instances, it's okay to have a lower risk tolerance, particularly if you are of a marginalized community that usually will be the first to be attacked, whether it's on the front lines, quite literally on the ground or if it's virtually. And so, I think one, it's always about assessing your risk tolerance and what you have the capacity to do. And also sometimes challenging yourself to do a little bit more. So, you know, if you're one of those people who have, you know, additional funds, make sure that you're actually, you know, donating those funds and actually purchasing things like the banned books. Like, there's a banned book list. Go on the band book list, make sure that those books are available to people. Make sure you're providing that within libraries or school systems to the extent that they can still have them or your family or your friends. That's really important because fun fact, a lot of these books that end up on a banned book list ends up being on New York Times best sellers list because people know that there's a reason why they're attempting to ban these books.

Jennie: If you ban it, you know it's good.

Preston: Exactly, exactly. I think another thing is for folks who really want to be more politically engaged, please, please, please, and if you're listening to this podcast, I know in many ways you have to be, but please make sure you're paying attention to what's happening. Of course at the, at the federal level, but especially at the local and state levels, I really do think we miss local and state actions because we're paying so much focus on the federal—and we should—and the local and state levels are where it's at rights where you talk about highways and byways, school systems. I mean things that actually impact your day-to-day dollars and cents. A lot of that is because of local and state. For funders, you know, I've had some very challenging conversations with funders recently, and part of it is because, and I say this in love, but also in challenging encouragement. A lot of funders are not meeting the needs right now. Many of them I've talked to are still doing things like very restricted funds. They're not attempting to increase specific funds. And that is really problematic for a lot of these organizations that are trying to navigate a very hostile political climate. And so, in these times, we need to be able to trust these organizations to do a little bit more with the money that they're given and not say that it has to be specific to this line item because we're not giving them a chance to actually expand and meet the needs of their community and members the best way that they know how. So that's really a challenge for funders as well. So again, donations, funders do better. There's ways to still, you know, be connected to like the advocacy and the policy side as well. But just most of all, please, please, please, I hope that people don't feel like they need to either be silent or cower or move to the middle right now. We need people, people need to be seen. Sure. Always. Part of being seen though is making sure that we know we're staying true to our values and our mission. And so if that means we need to shift terms to honor what feels safe, do that, but don't shift your values. And so, we need to really push forward like how to shift terms and not values. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of organizations shift both and trust me when I say we're gonna lose in the long term, even if it feels like we're having short term gains or advancements.

Jennie: Ooh. I feel that last part, especially, like, worrying about what groups are going to do to ensure they can continue to get funding. If they get government funding with all of these attacks on DEI or certain parts of our sector that we work in. And yeah, that has been something that has definitely been worrying me.

Preston: Yeah, I mean I hope- I haven't, I mean, I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's happened in spaces I may just not be privy to. What I'm really hoping is that we have a lot of principals and CEOs who are trying to really pull together many funders. Sectorally, I imagine.

Jennie: Yeah.

Preston: Just to kind of discuss what their approach has been and what it looks like. Because it hasn't been, it hasn't been that great. And I think all of us know that even if none of us are in a safe enough position to say it.

Jennie: Preston, as always, it is such a joy to talk to you. I am so happy to have you on after too long of an absence.

Preston: Yes [laughs]. I'm happy to be here too.

Jennie: Yeah, so thank you for being here. And I'm sure we'll have you on again soon to talk about something new.

Preston: Thank you. Thank you for any of your listeners, you can always look me up at www.prestonmitchum.com or Preston Mitchum on all of your platforms. So thank you so much, Jennie.

Jennie: Yeah. And we'll absolutely have links to all of the things in the show notes so you can easily find Preston wherever he is. Okay y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Preston. Like I said, I am so excited to have him on the podcast and so happy that he is now a senior fellow with rePROs. I am looking forward to what he is planning to be writing for us. I'm just very excited to have him on board and I hope you enjoy our conversation and we'll make sure to check out his writing once we have some of his pieces up. And with that, I will see everybody next week. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all!